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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#101

Post by md224 »

duairc wrote: post #51
tptacek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EXTERMINATE ALL RATIONAL THOUGHT. Questions are not allowed. Consideration is not allowed. Context is not allowed. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.

There's a Deleuze quote about this that I really like: “It is not the slumber of reason that engenders monsters, but vigilant and insomniac rationality”. What I understand this to mean is that the nature of “rationality” is such that a rational person can rationalize anything . Nobody is saying “EXTERMINATE ALL RATIONAL THOUGHT”, obviously this is just you trolling, but to the extent that anything intelligent can be…

> Sometimes it's important to halt that process and stop and just say "this is definitely fucked up", and yes, not to question it any further.

In my opinion, there are few things more tragic than someone carrying out actions with serious consequences on behalf of a belief that they refuse to question.

I believe I understand your pragmatic concerns. It is hard to act passionately while simultaneously entertaining doubts about your underlying beliefs. Obviously one does not need to set a timer and rigorously question their beliefs every five minutes. However, it is important that one welcomes evidence to the contrary and is willing to engage with that evidence. To do otherwise is to risk becoming a slave to dogma.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#102

Post by a3n »

mikeyouse wrote: post #30
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

Everyone on HN acts like there's no possible reason for people to support these types of activities, but there could be very legitimate reasons these engineers choose to do what they do. It could just be a challenge for them. Where else can you not only get away with, but be rewarded with a good salary and a pension for hacking into the most secure systems on earth? It must be thrilling to be 'Competing' against the…

> It could be that with their security clearances, they know things about threats that make their decision to work for the NSA a moral imperative.

This I very much doubt.The builders would have security clearances, because what they're building is classified. But builders would not need and would not have access to intelligence; they aren't analysts or policy makers. They probably have barely more information on intelligence than you or I, and only in the form of more solid rumors than we have access to.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#103

Post by adventured »

jumby wrote: post #71
angersock wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why wouldn't we surveil their cell phones, email and IM accounts?" Because we're Americans, goddamnit, and that's not what we do .

You must live in a utopia where there are no evil-doers.

The great big threatening evil doers?

You're more likely to die by lightning strike than terrorism.

You mean the police right? They kill drastically more innocent civilians every year in America than terrorists do. And that has been true on average for decades.

You mean automobiles? Drunk driving?

Diabetes and heart disease from high fructose corn syrup and smoking?

Yeah, it's the evil doers that we should be giving up all of our liberties to fight. Because they're a big bad threat - somewhere between the number of people that drown by putting their heads in buckets of water, and the number of people that die every year from 60" televisions crushing them.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#104

Post by nashequilibrium »

adventured wrote: post #91
nashequilibrium wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you see the guys youtube videos? Russia contacted the U.S. about one of the brothers, also the FBI did track that he was going to Russia and also interviewd him. They failed in not being able to act on the intelligence they had. The question is what are you willing to give up to go to that LA Laker game without worrying about terrorism or whether your parents will get home safely from the game. I am not trying to…

It's not necessary to give up anything to go to that Laker game without worrying about terrorism. Just like it wasn't 20 years ago, when the threat was as great as it is today. The only thing that has changed, is the bureaucracy acquired a massive amount of new money and power after 9/11 and they're unwilling to give any of it up. This despite the fact that the threat isn't even remotely as great as they've claimed f…

"Just like it wasn't 20 years ago, when the threat was as great as it is today." Do you have a link to the source of this data?

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#105

Post by lurchpop »

derefr wrote: post #86
Phlarp wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible reason. These men were the definition of the type of thing a system like this should catch. intelligence agencies had been warned about one of them multiple times and they were both using the internet to self radicalize. The fact that the Boston bombings still happened should be proof enough that these systems either A) Do not work or B) are not being used against this type of threat. If it isn't i…

Or... the system catches things like this all the time, this is just one that slipped through, and if the system wasn't in place, there would be many, many more incidents of this type. Maybe. (This is normally "bear-repellent amulet" type thinking, but I think there's a specific exemption in this case, in that there are good reasons why you'd see no evidence of the system's effectiveness: the government doesn't like…

Except, they can't point to any plots that have actually been thwarted. First it was 52 plots thwarted, then 2, then none.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#106

Post by duairc »

andrewfong wrote: post #87
duairc wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to identify the motivations of an action from the perspective of the perpetrator doesn't mean that one agrees with their actions, no, but the post that I replied to implied that there exist reasons to support “these types of activities”, which does imply agreement with the actions of the perpetrator. Edit: And also, it has to be said that trying to identify the motivations of an action from the perspective of…

"There exist reasons" != "There exist good reasons"

This is true. I tried to clarify this equivocation in another one of my posts in this thread.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#107

Post by abraxasz »

droopybuns wrote: post #46
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

Maybe the security community could have a discussion about whether it's time to start shaming people like TheGrugq. The people who are working for the NSA are people in the security community. You can see it in the phrasing on some of the material that's been release (WIN! stood out to me w/r/t one of the previously released docs regarding some MITM scenario). Obviously there are some very smart people in the communi…

"ask yourself if Charlie has ever had any ideals outside of looking out for number one."

Problem is, if he doesn't, who will? I think that one thing that might have changed in our generation, is that we have the distinct impression that nobody has our back. I'm not saying that politics are more messed up than they used to be, it's just more blatant. Nobody gives a fuck that people are dying in the streets, that we're invading countries to enrich defense contractors, and that we're bankrupting our own country just "because we won't be disrespected". So one guy decides that, fuck it, he has one life, and he'll have his fun. You may call this guy coward, selfish, anything. And maybe you're right. My guts agree with you. My head tells me he's on to something.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#108

Post by waqf »

jumby wrote: post #92
angersock wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't need to live in a utopia to see that doing the right thing despite being afraid and aware of existential threats is something worth doing.

Would your opinion change if a nuclear bomb was detonated in Houston, TX?

A nuclear bomb has not been detonated in Houston, TX. But nice straw man.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#109

Post by 1031throwaway »

sharkweek wrote: post #45
Cookingboy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm about to say may be too unpopular on HackerNews. Have you considered the possibility that not everyone shares the same moral standard and ideology? People came from different backgrounds and have different experiences, and most things are not black and white, but different shades of gray in this world. I'm sure there are people who consider the Fourth Amendment to be obsolete just like there are people who c…

No condescension intended, I am honestly just more curious -- I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things. I totally agree that people have varying beliefs on this stuff and for some this might be just as noble as any other way of serving their country.

Read this guy's tweets: https://twitter.com/justinschuh

I'm certainly not a fan of his ideology, but he gives an insight from someone who came from the NSA and is supportive of the executive branch's behavior.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#110

Post by MisterWebz »

jumby wrote: post #47
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

screw it, i'll repost my comment here too. I know i'll get the down-vote brigade but meh: Here's what bugs me about all the people chiming in about how messed up this all is. It's like you all think we live in some sort of utopia whereby we are the only ones doing this sort of surveillance. Every single sophisticated foreign intelligence is doing this back at us, their citizens and their enemies - probably with more…

> Fundamental extremists do exist and want to destroy Americans at any cost (including their lives). Why wouldn't we surveil their cell phones, email and IM accounts?

They should. Ever heard of the practice of getting a warrant before surveilling someone's communications? (google it). At this point this seems to be a foreign concept to so many people because one side is suggesting no spying at all, while the other side is suggesting they're okay with the NSA spying on everyone. There's a middle ground, and it's called getting a warrant.

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