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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#21
post #20

"Now, Silicon Valley needs to join them." - because we otherwise approve of the snooping, but for this latest outrage? I'm honestly wondering - what's the other side of this? Who's defending and explaining this? I have not seen an article that "takes the other side" in some time, and that might be a result of the echo chamber that is the bay area... Or it might be the result of an "intelligence community" that really…

With people like the POTUS, the Chief of the Intelligence Committee, and half of Congress backing them, not to mention most of the military industrial complex, who needs "supporters"?

Well, right - so long as both the democrat party line and the republican party line are the same on the issue, there's really nothing to be done about it.

My point is, though, that the question the article is posing - that it's time for us to ask: "Is it worth it?" has already been asked and answered with a resounding no!

Even without the privacy breaches, the financial cost alone isn't justified. But the privacy breaches are huge and problematic too.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#22

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

I think it's similar to people in the military who are given a gun and told to shoot someone they've never met. There are many people who believe what they're doing is for the good of their country and trust the people giving the orders.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#23

One thing I find interesting is that it's somehow okay as long as it's directed at 'the foreigners'. Who are these foreigners? Is it Sergey Brin or Larry Page, before they moved to the US? Elon Musk? Peter Thiel? Many Americans need not look further than their grandparents to see a 'foreigner' (and, excluding a few natives, the entire nation has been built by foreigners). Would it not makes sense to show the same cou…

As the article said, the USA turned away Huawei because they were too closely tied to the Chinese Government. The rest of the world could eventually do the same to Silicon Valley for the same reasons.

It's actually really short sighted, because by costing US companies the rest of the world as customers or forcing the rise of zero-knowledge companies, they're losing the ability to subpoena information on credible threats and actual criminals.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#24

One thing I find interesting is that it's somehow okay as long as it's directed at 'the foreigners'. Who are these foreigners? Is it Sergey Brin or Larry Page, before they moved to the US? Elon Musk? Peter Thiel? Many Americans need not look further than their grandparents to see a 'foreigner' (and, excluding a few natives, the entire nation has been built by foreigners). Would it not makes sense to show the same cou…

It's not okay ; it's still morally questionable at best . But it is infinitely more legal. The government has all sorts of restrictions on what it can do (e.g., the 4th amendment), that apply to citizens, but not foreign nationals. If they are not even bothering to respect the distinction, it's the case that they violate both the spirit and the letter of the law without a care; it's a much more dangerous position of…

But it is infinitely more legal.

Infinitely. And I don't get the outrage that foreigners have that the American people aren't outraged that we are spying on foreigners. That's what spies do - for both sides. The electronic monitoring of foreign communications is the charter of the NSA. By the way, China is quite silent on all of this because they are hacking the shit out of the US trying to steal everything from political to military to commercial secrets.

The outrage about the NSA is domestic spying. Intercepting communications of Americans outside of the US is a gray area but doing it to Americans on US soil is completely against the NSAs charter, tramples due process, and takes a dump on the Constitution. Anyone who said that was ok needs to be thrown into prison.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#25

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

If you tell a graduate engineer about the great mathematical problems there are to solve and that solving them will protect the American people, it's quite easy to get a strong workforce behind you.

And if they were just engineering small parts it was probably hard to see the whole picture, even more so to judge if it's right or wrong.

However, this big PR outrage will probably have them come to their senses and crumble down the NSA workforce. Checks and balances.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#26
I'm a bit confused by the whole "liberty needs a lobbyist" argument. Lobbying for what exactly? Intelligence agencies to pretend to stop spying on you? I think that's as much as you can reasonably hope for lobbying to achieve.

The wider implications are earlier in the article. Wearable recording devices and biometric security devices shared in the cloud? Probably better to assume the government will compromise them if it wants to, and might well do anyway, just in case, with or without the blessing of Silicon Valley. That's something to take into account when deciding if you actually want them. It's not an entirely new phenomenon though; the same was true of brick-sized mobile phones a couple of decades back.[1]

Your chances of having your life seriously affected by PRISM may or may not be higher than your chances of having your life seriously affected by terrorism [2] but it's a stone cold certainty that public criticism isn't putting the spooks to bed. Intelligence agencies have never really depended on being in tune with public sentiment or in line with the law.

[1]There's a well-publicised trial going on at the moment in the UK over "phone hacking" in the 1990s, where the organizations snooping on people's voicemails were newspapers. In a beautifully ironic touch, one of the major revelations of the trial so far is that two of the media moguls in question were having an affair. They were incriminated by a Word document; a love letter that may never even have been sent, and certainly wouldn't have come to light if they hadn't had to hand over their computers to prosecutors.

[2]both are higher than the article's "1 in 20 million", but not high enough to be likely if you're not a major public figure

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#28
post #25

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

If you tell a graduate engineer about the great mathematical problems there are to solve and that solving them will protect the American people, it's quite easy to get a strong workforce behind you. And if they were just engineering small parts it was probably hard to see the whole picture, even more so to judge if it's right or wrong. However, this big PR outrage will probably have them come to their senses and crum…

Yeah I suppose I buy into the micro/macro argument -- "Oh, I'm just working on this awesome data crawling problem that our country will use to stop bad people from entering the country" x 1000s of employees, and then you get a few dedicated folks at the top who put it all together, it gets pretty easy to see how that could result in the types of programs we're seeing

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#30

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

Everyone on HN acts like there's no possible reason for people to support these types of activities, but there could be very legitimate reasons these engineers choose to do what they do.

It could just be a challenge for them. Where else can you not only get away with, but be rewarded with a good salary and a pension for hacking into the most secure systems on earth? It must be thrilling to be 'Competing' against the best security engineers, best practices, with a massive budget to support your activities.

It could be that with their security clearances, they know things about threats that make their decision to work for the NSA a moral imperative. It's entirely possible that there are some really horrific classified things that were stopped via similar spying activities, so intercepting some Gmail messages seems like a much less evil alternative.

They could just be 'blindly' patriotic, have faith that the faults of the government are outweighed by the need to keep the US on top of the world.

There are many possible reasons.

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