Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#71

Post by wheels » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:05 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #29

German labor law has some features that might interact in interesting ways with startups. Germany lacks employment-at-will; it appears that disputed terminations can easily become lawsuits there (but German law also seems to have orderly mechanisms for resolving these disputes, which boil down to mandatory severance). German law has what appears to be a strict policy on hours worked per week and per day, and on worki…

On the at-will thing, in addition to it being easier if the company has demonstrable financial problems as someone else mentioned, one thing that makes it less of an issue is that usually when you start at a company in Germany you're given a fixed-term contract. It's only after your third contract (i.e. usually after two years) that you're required to get a permanent contract. In most cases if there's a real clash it's going to be sussed out in the first two years of employment, and during the first six months employees can be fired with no notice.

The working hours thing, for better or worse, is broadly ignored in software companies. That said, hours aren't as extreme as in many American companies.

For the parental leave, that only applies for companies with more than 15 employees, so the startups that it would affect are going to be more established. And while taking a year off is common, it's very rare for more to be taken with intent to return to the job.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#72

Post by nerfhammer » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:05 PM UTC

What about language barriers? Many German companies officially use English as their business language on paper at least, but how true would this be for startups?

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#73

Post by tokenadult » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:06 PM UTC

I didn't see any official statistics in this Bloomberg article, which is unusual for articles on public policy issues from that publisher. Such statistics would be helpful for putting the individual statements by business owners in context.

What do we know about the total number of immigrants who arrive in Germany each year under the visa status described in the article? How does that compare to the total number of immigrants who arrive in the United States each year under its visa categories mentioned in the article? As a matter of country-to-country net immigration, does the United States gain immigrants from Germany, or does Germany gain immigrants from the United States? (In net immigration between the two countries, do different categories of immigrants have differing net preferences for one country or the other?) It's really hard to figure out how generalizable the statements in this article are without more context like this. Statistics trump anecdotes, even though anecdotes are more compelling to the human mind.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#74

Post by LetBinding » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:06 PM UTC

What is the Big Data startup scene like in Berlin?

I am about to graduate with a PhD in Machine Learning from a US university. I have talked to several Big Data startups in the valley but being a foreigner, the visa is a hurdle. But if this article is true, maybe I should look at the Berlin scene.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#75

Post by oscargrouch » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

lgieron wrote: post #13

kellysutton wrote: post #7

Having built the first version of LayerVault in Berlin, it was remarkable to see how many expats were building companies there. It's also much more affordable than your more traditional hubs. I can't recommend Berlin enough, especially for building an MVP.

You can also build it in, like, your home town. I don't get this obsession with moving to a startup hub before there's even most remote proof of your startup's viability. To me, it always raises the suspicion that one's less interested in actually building the business and more interested in living inside the movie The Social Network.

I think is the same phenomenon that happen to a lot wannabe-writers or painters; they would move to Paris or New York, just to feel they were real Van Goghs or Proust's :)

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#76

Post by Qom » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:09 PM UTC

okeumeni wrote: post #32

This is controversial but it is my personal experience: As a non-white, living in Germany is hard; the level of bigotry and racism in my opinion makes the nuisance of the US visa system negligible. Most tech immigrants are non-whites so I think a debate over immigration should take into account the quality of life for the techies and their family. Sure the US still have a lot to do to improve its visa system, but the…

I honestly find that surprising. Germany is the place in Europe where there is the most white guilt. I stayed there for a few months and experienced zero problems.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#77

Post by gsnedders » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:10 PM UTC

Aloisius wrote: post #44

levosmetalo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why there's no rational reason experienced developer who have a wife and kids will choose USA over Germany. In USA he would first need to wait at least one year until his family can arrive, then wait for 5 or more years to get permanent residency (Green Card) in which period his wife will not have permission to work, and he would be unable to plan his future in any significant way because he would live on the…

I'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way of life for 50+ work weeks, one week of vacation and no payed sick or parental leave, super expensive education and no universal health care. No paid sick leave? One week of vacation? Super expensive education (for kindergarten???)? Where in the US are you talking about? While we don't tend to have laws mandating sick leave, nearly every company that you'd immigrate for give…

> I've never worked anywhere that didn't offer at least two weeks of vacation.

Anecdotal, and also, in most of Europe one is legally obliged to have at least four weeks. I'm pretty sure I'd just burn-out quite quickly only having two weeks a year, myself.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#78

Post by jkarni » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:10 PM UTC

Aloisius wrote: post #54

US Visa laws are certainly hard, but there is a positive side (for the US at least): only those that are highly motivated to move here make it through the process. This really does bias the types of immigrants we get. As much as people might complain about immigrants coming in and then going on welfare, it just doesn't happen with any frequency. Instead, we get immigrants who come here and start companies at twice th…

Or: weeding out everyone who believes forms and bureaucracy shouldn't constitute a significant fraction of one's mental landscape, or who is offended by the extent to which the difficulty of the process makes it seem like the government doesn't want you here in the first place, or whose opportunities in other countries are close enough in attractiveness for the annoyance to tip the scale (presumably precisely the people you should most try to attract).

Though "weeding out" or "filtering" to any real extent clearly isn't all that much of a priority when a large part of the system is a lottery.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#79

Post by mahyarm » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:11 PM UTC

levosmetalo wrote: post #34

pucallpa wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this ^^^ I worked in canada for a year and was offered to stay, my permanent residency would have been granted after 6 months and citizenship in 2 years. After 5 years in the US, I'm on this situation, even after obtained a Software Engineering master degree in the US from CMU, my application is being dragged.

That's why there's no rational reason experienced developer who have a wife and kids will choose USA over Germany. In USA he would first need to wait at least one year until his family can arrive, then wait for 5 or more years to get permanent residency (Green Card) in which period his wife will not have permission to work, and he would be unable to plan his future in any significant way because he would live on the…

You can actually get an immigration (green card) visa from outside the country from the start. You could work for Google Berlin/Zurich for example, and then move over when its all processed for a green card on arrival. One co-worker for the startup I work for came from Chile that way.

You can also just work for Google in Europe for a year or two, and then get transferred over on a L1/L2 visa where your wife can also get a work permit/visa as part of the package.

Also if you work for a company like google/facebook, you get very good health care, can send your children to decent public schools, you have decent working hours, good amount of vacation time, far more pay than you would get in Europe, free meals and I think google offers on site kindergarden too. Also while you just have a work visa, you can still change employers through more paperwork, but no practical ill effects in the end.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#80

Post by claudius » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 6:14 PM UTC

Aloisius wrote: post #44

levosmetalo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why there's no rational reason experienced developer who have a wife and kids will choose USA over Germany. In USA he would first need to wait at least one year until his family can arrive, then wait for 5 or more years to get permanent residency (Green Card) in which period his wife will not have permission to work, and he would be unable to plan his future in any significant way because he would live on the…

I'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way of life for 50+ work weeks, one week of vacation and no payed sick or parental leave, super expensive education and no universal health care. No paid sick leave? One week of vacation? Super expensive education (for kindergarten???)? Where in the US are you talking about? While we don't tend to have laws mandating sick leave, nearly every company that you'd immigrate for give…

> Out of state tuition is typically expensive if you want to go to a top university, but the average community college is downright cheap.

Studying at Germany’s best public universities (e.g. LMU Munich, FU Berlin etc.) will set you back about 250 € per term (6 months), which includes a public transport ticket (or about 50€ if said public transport ticket is not mandatory for all students).

How ‘cheap’ exactly is a community college?