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Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

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Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#61

Post by mahyarm »

berlincitizen2 wrote: post #19
chimeracoder wrote: post #4

Visas deter US-based startups from hiring foreign talent, but on the flip side, US taxation laws deter US-based talent from leaving the country. I would love the idea of working for a startup in Berlin, but to make financially comparable, I'd have to be paid about 30% more[0] just to offset the cost of paying double taxes (both to the US, and to Germany). I'm ignoring factors like COLA, other expenses, etc., but for…

Mind you that the cost of living in Berlin is nowhere near the cost of living in the Valley. A 40 square meter flat here costs just around 500€ ( less than 700$). I hear it's about three times as expensive in the valley. You get plenty of restaurants around for less than 10€. Other note: medical insurance is mandatory and covered by your taxes. It just doesn't make sense to compare salaries like this, you need to com…

NYC & SF are silly compared to the rest of the USA. I can go live in Seattle for that rent when I was there 3 years ago. I don't get state income tax either, which further increases my income. I have cheap, quick, direct flights to NYC & SF from Seattle too. Austin is probably a similar situation.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#62

Post by tokenadult »

pucallpa wrote: post #27
parennoob wrote: post #5

As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it. The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for…

this ^^^ I worked in canada for a year and was offered to stay, my permanent residency would have been granted after 6 months and citizenship in 2 years. After 5 years in the US, I'm on this situation, even after obtained a Software Engineering master degree in the US from CMU, my application is being dragged.

I worked in canada for a year and was offered to stay

After 5 years in the US

If I am reading this correctly, you came to the United States even though you had an opportunity to stay in Canada. What was the appeal of coming to the United States?

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#63

Post by Argorak »

janus wrote: post #11

As a argentinian programmer with italian citizenship that is considering leaving the country for Europe, are there any sites / forums or communities where I can contact startups or companies residing in Berlin? I'm a web developer with experience in Ruby, Rails and Javascript

Contact the Ruby Berlin Community (either through RUG::B or Ruby Berlin e.V.). We have members that are in a similar situation like you and will definitely be able to help you out.

Also, there is a surprising number of Berliners going to RubyConf AR. That would be a nice place to meet people.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#64

Post by mbesto »

philiphodgen wrote: post #14
chimeracoder wrote: post #4

Visas deter US-based startups from hiring foreign talent, but on the flip side, US taxation laws deter US-based talent from leaving the country. I would love the idea of working for a startup in Berlin, but to make financially comparable, I'd have to be paid about 30% more[0] just to offset the cost of paying double taxes (both to the US, and to Germany). I'm ignoring factors like COLA, other expenses, etc., but for…

If you are a U.S. citizen working in Berlin and paying German income tax, you will not be double-taxed on the income. The USA will give you credit for the tax paid in Germany. See Form 1116. Others have mentioned the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. See Form 2555. You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridicu…

> You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridiculous.

Really? All I did in my tax returns was say "I made this much outside of the US and paid this much in taxes". As long as the percentage is higher than you would have paid in the US, than you owe nothing. In the case that you don't...well then you might want to hire an accountant to "get creative".

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#65

Post by spikels »

This is a weak article. The headline exaggerates the content of the article as is often the case. Based on anecdotal opinions of two Berlin techies who probably have an incentive to promote Berlin's tech scene. The conclusion is that the German visa process is still intolerable. Yet somehow the application process is better is some ways. Some details of the process would be nice as well numbers of visas granted and time frames would be very helpful.

There are currently several big PR effort around US immigration reform[1]. Could this article just be part of that effort directed at Silicon Valley? Am I being paranoid?

Edit: I'm for easier immigration and work visas but would like a more transparent and fact based discussion.

[1] http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/10/24/republicans-for-imm...

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#67

Post by siddhant »

okeumeni wrote: post #32

This is controversial but it is my personal experience: As a non-white, living in Germany is hard; the level of bigotry and racism in my opinion makes the nuisance of the US visa system negligible. Most tech immigrants are non-whites so I think a debate over immigration should take into account the quality of life for the techies and their family. Sure the US still have a lot to do to improve its visa system, but the…

Where in Germany are you? I think this is the first time I've heard anyone say that there is racism in Germany.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#68

Post by lightbritefight »

Aloisius wrote: post #44
levosmetalo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why there's no rational reason experienced developer who have a wife and kids will choose USA over Germany. In USA he would first need to wait at least one year until his family can arrive, then wait for 5 or more years to get permanent residency (Green Card) in which period his wife will not have permission to work, and he would be unable to plan his future in any significant way because he would live on the…

I'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way of life for 50+ work weeks, one week of vacation and no payed sick or parental leave, super expensive education and no universal health care. No paid sick leave? One week of vacation? Super expensive education (for kindergarten???)? Where in the US are you talking about? While we don't tend to have laws mandating sick leave, nearly every company that you'd immigrate for give…

| Where in the US are you talking about? While we don't tend to have laws mandating sick leave, nearly every company that you'd immigrate for gives it. I've never worked anywhere that didn't offer at least two weeks of vacation.

No offense, but your proof here is purely anecdotal. I've worked for employers who offer less than two weeks. My first STEM job offered 5 days your first year, with 5 more each additional year, capping at 20. 2 weeks may be thought of as the norm, but since there is no actual law about it, its only a suggestion.

|Working 50+ hours is really a personal choice (as long as you work for an ethical employer) since it isn't legal to require someone to work more than 40 hours/week.

This is only true if you are hourly, and dont fall under a salaried exception. Its also only true if your employer is ethical, as you say. Since the US is largely at-will, you can be fired for most any reason. They aren't even required to tell you why. So, if you turn down your unethical boss insistence on a 50 hour week at a 40 hour weeks pay, you can be on the street in an hour. You can try to fight it, but the laws in the US are stacked in the employers favor.

|I'm not sure about super expensive education. Out of state tuition is typically expensive if you want to go to a good university, but the average community college is downright cheap.

This is generally true. JC are comparably cheap, but contrast this against someplace in the EU that has "high" tuition. A 4 year degree from a good school in England will set you back about 30k. Here, an equivalently prestigious degree can cost you 150k, easy. While you may learn the same at a 2 year JC, which will still cost you 15k by the by,you lack the prestige that a University degree gets you. Sadly, thats what gets you in the door. So, to be equally prestigious, you need to have 150k in debt in the US, and only 30K in debt in the UK. Thats not the same at all.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#69

Post by wellboy »

chimeracoder wrote: post #33
macspoofing wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and that's not taking into account the fact that this is a disincentive to look for jobs abroad If you don't want to do something, you can always rationalize it. If really wanted to work in Berlin or elsewhere, you'd do it, and it wouldn't be a big deal.

> If really wanted to work in Berlin or elsewhere, you'd do it, and it wouldn't be a big deal. This is simply getting at the notion of the premium - how much I value working abroad. A more formal way of asking this question, assuming for simplicity a $100K/year salary: "How attractive (measured in dollars) is the idea of working in Berlin?" If it's worth $30,000/year, you'll do it as long as you can make 70% of your…

Berlin is 3 times cheaper in terms of rent & food than San Francisco.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#70

Post by vasilipupkin »

spikels wrote: post #36
philiphodgen wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an extreme financial disincentive for Americans to work abroad. If you travel frequently to Dubai (as an example) as I do, it will astonish* you to discover very few Americans working there, but tons of British, Australian, South African, etc. people busily making a living, building a business, etc. The reason is taxation. Americans working in Dubai (no income tax there) must still pay U.S. income tax and pa…

This effect is biggest in low tax countries because of the credit US citizens end up paying the HIGHER of US and local income taxes (more or less - rules are complex). Also see relatively few Americans in Hong Kong and Singapore which have low tax rates like Dubai. Unlike almost everyone else in the world there is no benefit for Americans to work in low tax countries because they still end up paying US tax rates. If…

There is still a benefit, because you pay only federal income taxes, but not state taxes and you do not pay various other taxes such as medicare surcharge on investment income. So if you are from a high tax state in the U.S. ( California or NY ), it may still make sense.
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