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Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

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Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#31

Post by enraged_camel »

parennoob wrote: post #5

As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it. The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for…

The best part is that the immigration officer assigned to your "case" can repeatedly ask for additional evidence (called RFE - request for evidence), and ultimately reject it for the most ridiculously superficial reasons.

The way my lawyer explained it to me made perfect sense: USCIS's job is to reject visa applicants, not to accept them. The more visas they reject, the better they look in the eyes of an electorate who by and large hates foreigners "stealing" jobs from Americans.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#32

Post by okeumeni »

This is controversial but it is my personal experience: As a non-white, living in Germany is hard; the level of bigotry and racism in my opinion makes the nuisance of the US visa system negligible. Most tech immigrants are non-whites so I think a debate over immigration should take into account the quality of life for the techies and their family. Sure the US still have a lot to do to improve its visa system, but the American way of life and its people, makes the US the most attractive place to go for non-whites techies.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#33

Post by chimeracoder »

macspoofing wrote: post #26
chimeracoder wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Disclaimer: I am an international tax lawyer. Alright, I'll take your word for it then. > You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridiculous So, instead of getting shafted by paying Uncle Sam, I'll get shafted by paying a tax attorney. :) Either way, there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and t…

>there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and that's not taking into account the fact that this is a disincentive to look for jobs abroad If you don't want to do something, you can always rationalize it. If really wanted to work in Berlin or elsewhere, you'd do it, and it wouldn't be a big deal.

> If really wanted to work in Berlin or elsewhere, you'd do it, and it wouldn't be a big deal.

This is simply getting at the notion of the premium - how much I value working abroad.

A more formal way of asking this question, assuming for simplicity a $100K/year salary:

"How attractive (measured in dollars) is the idea of working in Berlin?"

If it's worth $30,000/year, you'll do it as long as you can make 70% of your US salary or more. Otherwise, it's not worth it.

It's not a matter of "not wanting to do something" - it's a matter of the opportunity cost. In this case, the opportunity cost of working abroad for US citizens is high (see philiphogden's comments), so the only people who will do it are the people who can rationalize taking a financial hit.

So yes, the answer is "you want it, just not enough". But the following question is, "how much should someone have to want to work abroad in order to do it?"

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#34

Post by levosmetalo »

pucallpa wrote: post #27
parennoob wrote: post #5

As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it. The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for…

this ^^^ I worked in canada for a year and was offered to stay, my permanent residency would have been granted after 6 months and citizenship in 2 years. After 5 years in the US, I'm on this situation, even after obtained a Software Engineering master degree in the US from CMU, my application is being dragged.

That's why there's no rational reason experienced developer who have a wife and kids will choose USA over Germany. In USA he would first need to wait at least one year until his family can arrive, then wait for 5 or more years to get permanent residency (Green Card) in which period his wife will not have permission to work, and he would be unable to plan his future in any significant way because he would live on the edge of deportation if his current employer decide he doesn't work (good/hard/long) enough. That's at least six years of limbo in someones' life. It might be ok for singles with no kids, but noone else.

Compare that to Germany where it takes at most 3 months to be completely settled with the family where wife also gets work permit, and children can start getting child benefits and going to state subsided kindergartens from the get go.

I would start thinking about moving to US if and only if I would get Green Card from the start, but even then I'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way of life for 50+ work weeks, one week of vacation and no payed sick or parental leave, super expensive education and no universal health care.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#35

Post by CodeMage »

parennoob wrote: post #5

As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it. The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for…

Let's say you knew someone who was granted an H1B1 visa based on a combination of some university education (but without getting a degree) and years of relevant experience in the field. Would this person stand a chance of being granted permanent residency?

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#36

Post by spikels »

philiphodgen wrote: post #23
chimeracoder wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Disclaimer: I am an international tax lawyer. Alright, I'll take your word for it then. > You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridiculous So, instead of getting shafted by paying Uncle Sam, I'll get shafted by paying a tax attorney. :) Either way, there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and t…

There is an extreme financial disincentive for Americans to work abroad. If you travel frequently to Dubai (as an example) as I do, it will astonish* you to discover very few Americans working there, but tons of British, Australian, South African, etc. people busily making a living, building a business, etc. The reason is taxation. Americans working in Dubai (no income tax there) must still pay U.S. income tax and pa…

This effect is biggest in low tax countries because of the credit US citizens end up paying the HIGHER of US and local income taxes (more or less - rules are complex).

Also see relatively few Americans in Hong Kong and Singapore which have low tax rates like Dubai. Unlike almost everyone else in the world there is no benefit for Americans to work in low tax countries because they still end up paying US tax rates. If a company hires an Austrailian and an American in Hong Kong the American ends up with less after tax income. So the draw to these places is much less for US citizens.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#37

Post by CalRobert »

I clawed and scratched my way into Europe (Ireland) because I was sick and tired of my taxes supporting drone warfare and I didn't want to have to pay $2500 per month for an apartment so I could ride a bike to work. It's awesome.

By all accounts Germany is even nicer, with a stronger economy, better cycling infrastructure, and cheaper rents. Honestly I'm not sure why you'd move to the US if Germany is an option.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#38

Post by freehunter »

nchuhoai wrote: post #24

Just to chip in on the Berlin train. As OP stated, it's fairly easy to get a visa, but you might not even need one. I know tons of people who have no official visa whatsoever, are just there on a tourist visa, which really is just a simple stamp at the border. No one really cares. Usual talking points include the low living costs but relatively high standard of living, making it the ideal ground for people in their 2…

If I were seeking citizenship in Germany but had only been in the country on the tourist visa, does the (5 year?) timer start from when I arrived in the country, or from when I get an official visa?

You can work a job legally without a work visa?

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#39

Post by spariev »

janus wrote: post #11

As a argentinian programmer with italian citizenship that is considering leaving the country for Europe, are there any sites / forums or communities where I can contact startups or companies residing in Berlin? I'm a web developer with experience in Ruby, Rails and Javascript

You may want to take a look at http://berlinstartupjobs.com

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#40

Post by thetrb »

chimeracoder wrote: post #33
macspoofing wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and that's not taking into account the fact that this is a disincentive to look for jobs abroad If you don't want to do something, you can always rationalize it. If really wanted to work in Berlin or elsewhere, you'd do it, and it wouldn't be a big deal.

> If really wanted to work in Berlin or elsewhere, you'd do it, and it wouldn't be a big deal. This is simply getting at the notion of the premium - how much I value working abroad. A more formal way of asking this question, assuming for simplicity a $100K/year salary: "How attractive (measured in dollars) is the idea of working in Berlin?" If it's worth $30,000/year, you'll do it as long as you can make 70% of your…

Berlin is a relatively cheap place to live. So depending on where you live now you might actually need much less money when living in Berlin.
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