Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#21

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:10 PM UTC

philiphodgen wrote: post #14

chimeracoder wrote: post #4

Visas deter US-based startups from hiring foreign talent, but on the flip side, US taxation laws deter US-based talent from leaving the country. I would love the idea of working for a startup in Berlin, but to make financially comparable, I'd have to be paid about 30% more[0] just to offset the cost of paying double taxes (both to the US, and to Germany). I'm ignoring factors like COLA, other expenses, etc., but for…

If you are a U.S. citizen working in Berlin and paying German income tax, you will not be double-taxed on the income. The USA will give you credit for the tax paid in Germany. See Form 1116. Others have mentioned the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. See Form 2555. You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridicu…

> Disclaimer: I am an international tax lawyer.

Alright, I'll take your word for it then.

> You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridiculous

So, instead of getting shafted by paying Uncle Sam, I'll get shafted by paying a tax attorney. :)

Either way, there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and that's not taking into account the fact that this is a disincentive to look for jobs abroad (speaking for myself, I'd want to figure out the financial implications before seeking employment abroad, and this creates yet one more hurdle).

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#22

Post by hbharadwaj » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:13 PM UTC

Added to the fact that people coming from India and China don't have options like DV list, O1 and are sort of ill-treated and are looked down upon, etc., - I owe a lot of gratitude to the outsourcing and loan staff boom. Thanks Infosys, Wipro, etc.,

Can someone comment on how London compares with Berlin?

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#23

Post by philiphodgen » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:13 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #21

philiphodgen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a U.S. citizen working in Berlin and paying German income tax, you will not be double-taxed on the income. The USA will give you credit for the tax paid in Germany. See Form 1116. Others have mentioned the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. See Form 2555. You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridicu…

> Disclaimer: I am an international tax lawyer. Alright, I'll take your word for it then. > You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridiculous So, instead of getting shafted by paying Uncle Sam, I'll get shafted by paying a tax attorney. :) Either way, there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and t…

There is an extreme financial disincentive for Americans to work abroad. If you travel frequently to Dubai (as an example) as I do, it will astonish* you to discover very few Americans working there, but tons of British, Australian, South African, etc. people busily making a living, building a business, etc.

The reason is taxation. Americans working in Dubai (no income tax there) must still pay U.S. income tax and pay a ton to get the tax returns done correctly. A British citizen working in Dubai pays nothing to Inland Revenue and does not file a U.K. income tax return.

Question: who is cheaper to hire, if you are an employer in Dubai?

Hint: that's why all of the international bankers are NOT American.

-------

* Sarcasm.

EDIT: this is one reason why our law firm has a booming business in expatriation -- people giving up U.S. citizenship/green cards.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#24

Post by nchuhoai » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:15 PM UTC

Just to chip in on the Berlin train. As OP stated, it's fairly easy to get a visa, but you might not even need one. I know tons of people who have no official visa whatsoever, are just there on a tourist visa, which really is just a simple stamp at the border. No one really cares.

Usual talking points include the low living costs but relatively high standard of living, making it the ideal ground for people in their 20s-30s trying to get something off the ground.

Can't really comment on what happens once you get off the ground, generally Germany is just a bureaucracy if not worse than the US.

Also, it's super hip to hate on all the newcomers to Berlin and how Berlin becomes no hip no more. Funny thing is that most of them have barely been a year or two in Berlin. As born-and-raised Berliner, I reserve myself the right to shit on the influx of people.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#25

Post by CookWithMe » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:16 PM UTC

> The amount of talent that I need for the problem that we're trying to solve

NumberFour has an incredibly high turnover of talent, both from what I anecdotally hear from people who workED their (apparently no one sticks around for longer than a year...) and when looking online at their ratings: http://www.kununu.com/de/be/berlin/in/numberfour1

So, if you you want to emigrate to Berlin, please do so, but be aware that there are great and ... not-so-great companies here (like everywhere else).

[Disclaimer: I shortly considered applying at NumberFour, but quickly dismissed it ]

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#26

Post by macspoofing » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:16 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #21

philiphodgen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a U.S. citizen working in Berlin and paying German income tax, you will not be double-taxed on the income. The USA will give you credit for the tax paid in Germany. See Form 1116. Others have mentioned the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. See Form 2555. You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridicu…

> Disclaimer: I am an international tax lawyer. Alright, I'll take your word for it then. > You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridiculous So, instead of getting shafted by paying Uncle Sam, I'll get shafted by paying a tax attorney. :) Either way, there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and t…

>there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and that's not taking into account the fact that this is a disincentive to look for jobs abroad

If you don't want to do something, you can always rationalize it. If really wanted to work in Berlin or elsewhere, you'd do it, and it wouldn't be a big deal.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#27

Post by pucallpa » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:16 PM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #5

As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it. The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for…

this ^^^

I worked in canada for a year and was offered to stay, my permanent residency would have been granted after 6 months and citizenship in 2 years.

After 5 years in the US, I'm on this situation, even after obtained a Software Engineering master degree in the US from CMU, my application is being dragged.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#28

Post by gotrecruit » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:18 PM UTC

as an aspiring foreign entrepreneur (to US), i have personally been through visa hell the past year. i spent almost an entire year going through the horrible visa process, and til today i'm still yet to receive one. i've been denied 3 times already and i highly doubt i will ever get one. i don't understand why america is so hostile to foreigners these days.

for the record, i have a bachelor's degree from a respectable american university (the only visa i've ever gotten), i have no criminal convictions and i come from a wealthy 1%-er family from my country. i cannot see how i pose any risk at all to america by letting me in. i've very recently made my last attempt to return to US, and if this fails again, i will not try again and will be looking to canada instead where i will bring all the resources i have and try to start something. i hope to succeed, if only just for the chance to be in the news and say something to the effect of "America, you could have had all these taxes paid to you and all these jobs created by my company, instead you shut your doors to me and so fuck you"

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#29

Post by tptacek » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:18 PM UTC

German labor law has some features that might interact in interesting ways with startups.

Germany lacks employment-at-will; it appears that disputed terminations can easily become lawsuits there (but German law also seems to have orderly mechanisms for resolving these disputes, which boil down to mandatory severance).

German law has what appears to be a strict policy on hours worked per week and per day, and on working over weekends.

German law has statutory maternity leave (which I think is unproblematic) but also a statutory 3-year(!) parental leave, during which time employees aren't paid but are entitled to their job on return. Are startups exempt from this?

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#30

Post by kmfrk » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 5:21 PM UTC

lgieron wrote: post #13

kellysutton wrote: post #7

Having built the first version of LayerVault in Berlin, it was remarkable to see how many expats were building companies there. It's also much more affordable than your more traditional hubs. I can't recommend Berlin enough, especially for building an MVP.

You can also build it in, like, your home town. I don't get this obsession with moving to a startup hub before there's even most remote proof of your startup's viability. To me, it always raises the suspicion that one's less interested in actually building the business and more interested in living inside the movie The Social Network.

"Let them come, and they will build it." :)