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NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

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Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#331

Post by vilhelm_s »

cromwellian wrote: post #177
jakewalker wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who knows how many thousands of pages they need to read and understand? Also, don't underestimate the difficulty of a reporter understanding these thousands of documents sufficiently to recognize when one is really important.

If they don't understand what's going on, wouldn't that argue in favor of doing more detailed research and analysis before writing claims? The original assumptions/claims in the Guardian story on PRISM are now shown to be false. This caused a lot of negative blowback on the companies involved. Don't we expect our investigative journalists, to well, actually investigate things, instead of rushing to print?

As I understand it, there is nothing in this latest release which contradicts the previous PRISM stories. They are two separate programs.

In other words, NSA used court orders to access data with the knowledge (but gagging) of the companies (PRISM), while at the same time also hacking into the companies to access data without their knowledge (MUSCULAR). These things were both true.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#332

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

gdwatson wrote: post #255
swombat wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's not like the German people are at all sensitive about the topic of having a secret, unaccountable organisation spying on them.

I certainly can't blame them for being upset. But for a NATO country to expel the US embassy would be a very dramatic act with uncertain consequences. There's a lot of fallout to accept there, and the impact would be broader than US-German relations.

> for a NATO country to expel the US embassy would be a very dramatic act with uncertain consequences.

Absolutely, but when German Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich says "those responsible must be held accountable." I would guess that he means that there will, must be consequences. Closing the embassy is a consequence of last resort, if there is continued intransigence.

Will that happen? that's up to the US government, and possibly not the elected part.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#333

Post by neilk »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #44

Meta remark, somewhat snarky: I would like to know at what point do all the HN'ers making fun of those libertarians among us concerned with security -- I believe over a period of months we were called "tinfoil hat types" and worse -- come back and offer us an apology. I am not holding my breath. (Although it's a snarky comment, I didn't make the comment just to snark. The point was to point out that over and over aga…

It matters not that you were right, but why you were right. If someone says they knew about the NSA taps because they were in cahoots with aliens, obviously they don't get credit.

I don't know what your politics are in general, so I can't criticize them.

But, in my experience, American capitalist libertarians are - in general - united not by a love of liberty, but a hatred of government. And that narrative, I think, does not have much predictive power. It vaguely fits the NSA case, but is harder to sustain when it comes to things like socialized medicine.

P.S. That said, I've learned a lot from libertarians, especially in their skepticism; sometimes doing nothing is the best strategy and sometimes the existence of a government agency is the problem. And it's inspired me to read authors like Hayek, who I respect a lot. But the modern movements seem to be more inspired by Rand than Hayek. Rand's narrative is that government is a conspiracy by the weak to oppress the strong, which I find ludicrous.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#334

Post by lucisferre »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #315
SeanLuke wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? Do you really believe that this is the modus operandi only of the United States? Since, say, France has _at least_ the same position with regard to the rest of the world vs. French citizens, are you angry at France too? Will you cut all french,…

> Do you really believe that this is the modus operandi only of the United States? Your fallacy is: Tu quoque http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

This is one of the few times that someone pointing out a fallacy on HN was apt.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#335

Post by _bfhp »

hexis wrote: post #300
bilbo0s wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a US citizen. Born and bred. And, at this point, I can't in good faith say that I would blame you. I think it's pretty safe to say that getting rid of a President is no longer enough. My sense is that the people who make these policies really are "Beyond Elections". They are constants in our government. And appear unassailable. I doubt very much that we, the American People, could even IDENTIFY the people setting…

"My sense is that the people who make these policies really are "Beyond Elections". They are constants in our government." Yes, these people are our fellow citizens. There is no conspiracy, merely functioning democracy.

"functioning" democracy?? are you joking? do you know anything about campaign finance?

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#336

Post by SeanLuke »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #315
SeanLuke wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? Do you really believe that this is the modus operandi only of the United States? Since, say, France has _at least_ the same position with regard to the rest of the world vs. French citizens, are you angry at France too? Will you cut all french,…

> Do you really believe that this is the modus operandi only of the United States? Your fallacy is: Tu quoque http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Tu quoque is basically the "but everyone does it" argument. I agree that'd be specious -- but I'm not saying that. Rather, I'm the poster's claims ("arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious") -- particularly "arrogant" -- imply that he thought the US was doing something unique that other countries are above, and thus the US was deserving of special disdain. This implication is simply wrong. But he's building his whole argument on it.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#337

Post by danbruc »

jganetsk wrote: post #322
danbruc wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? I can not remember when something similar made me that angry as the current conduct of the US does. If I would not know better that this would negatively affect the whole world and innocent US citizens and that emotional reactions are usually not…

But, by denying movement, you are suggesting to treat US citizens as second class humans. To what purpose? in order to punish them? To educate them about your importance?

I am to lazy to type it again, but this comment [1] from me fits your comment pretty well.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6643253

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#338

Post by tdfx »

bparsons wrote: post #197
tptacek wrote: post #2

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. That aside, let me re-make a point I keep making: Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. But still, they pushed harder than anyone…

The stage is being set for a giant conflict between the intelligence community and the political class in DC.

The political class is still more scared of being on the wrong side of security in the event of another terrorist attack. On a long enough timeline there certainly is bound to be another attack, and no one wants to be the one who weakened the intelligence community's toolset. No one seems to understand the tradeoffs they are making.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#339

Post by Bluestrike2 »

bhousel wrote: post #99
dlinder wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your opponent uses Navy submarines to tap undersea cables right under the Soviets' noses, you probably shouldn't trust your leased fiber with unencrypted data. This interception could occur where undersea cables make landfall without any datacenter antics.

Why would NSA agents go through all the trouble of tapping cables when they could probably just gain employment at Google and do whatever they want. I don't think encryption would make a difference here.

From their perspective, why not tackle the additional attack vectors?

As for the internal mole, I'd imagine that any such individual's role would be highly focused. They'd be used to tackle specific target information rather than the wholesale siphoning tapped cables would provide. Aside from the simple logistic issues with the sheer amount of data they're tapping, I can't imagine how anyone could be in a physical position to do so across the entire Google network without tripping at least one internal safeguard?

For bulk collection, the taps enable surveillance without the possibility of detection unless the NSA screws the proverbial pooch. And if there's one thing history can tell us, it's that surveillance agencies will spend obscene amounts of money in pursuit of that undetectability. From the Project Azorian with the Glomar Explorer to the Berlin tunnels in Operation Gold, the Cold War alone proves the point.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#340

Post by jlgreco »

hexis wrote: post #300
bilbo0s wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a US citizen. Born and bred. And, at this point, I can't in good faith say that I would blame you. I think it's pretty safe to say that getting rid of a President is no longer enough. My sense is that the people who make these policies really are "Beyond Elections". They are constants in our government. And appear unassailable. I doubt very much that we, the American People, could even IDENTIFY the people setting…

"My sense is that the people who make these policies really are "Beyond Elections". They are constants in our government." Yes, these people are our fellow citizens. There is no conspiracy, merely functioning democracy.

"Citizen are involved" and "the democracy is not function as intended and/or there is a situation that can not be rectified democratically" are anything but mutually exclusive.
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