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Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

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Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#11
This is the very sort of interaction that leads me to be very, very unoptimistic about ever seeing Moore's Law style runaway advancement in biotechnology.

Biology, it seems, is deeply unabstractable. Ie, as one moves up the levels of organization, one rarely (never?) reaches a point where a higher level can be fully modeled without also fully modeling each of the lower levels.

This is in sharp contrast to computer engineering, where, for example, one can model a processor with all practical accuracy by treating the individual as idealized boolean logic (As we move towards smaller and smaller transistors, this abstraction is threatening to become "leaky", but this has been true thus far throughout the Moore-ian advancement).

I suspect that there may be a limit to the degree of complexity humans can "manage", and thus, without the benefit of effective abstraction, there is a limit on the degree of advancement we can achieve in bending biology to our will.

(An example that speaks to this, in my mind, is the fact that our attempts to chemically tweak our own biochemistry (viz. drugs) are hilariously crude (flood the system with a handful of chemicals, which hopefully drives the system as a whole in the general direction we want) compared to the regulation that the body carries out on its own.)

Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#12
post #11

This is the very sort of interaction that leads me to be very, very unoptimistic about ever seeing Moore's Law style runaway advancement in biotechnology. Biology, it seems, is deeply unabstractable . Ie, as one moves up the levels of organization, one rarely (never?) reaches a point where a higher level can be fully modeled without also fully modeling each of the lower levels. This is in sharp contrast to computer e…

I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic. We can capture a large part of neuronal variability using Hodgkin Huxley type models (like the one they use in the paper). Dendritic spikes have been hypothesized to be involved in computations for quite a while we just haven't had evidence in vivo. My take home from the paper is that the voltage dependent active properties of the dendritic tree act as an amplifier for synaptic events.

This doesn't fundamentally change how we think neurons work, it just fills in one of the major gaps in our understanding of how relatively few synaptic events could lead to a somatic action potential--something that is very hard to explain if dendrites only passively integrate incoming synaptic events. To give an example, there are connections in the brain between excitatory neurons and inhibitory neurons that are known to basically be 1:1 with virtually no failure rate, one spike in the excitatory neuron will evoke a spike in the inhibitory neuron pretty much every single time. Based on what we know about synaptic failure rates and the total number of synaptic events we think are required to generate and action potential, this phenomena is difficult to explain. Active dendritic properties as described in the paper provide a possible mechanism.

edit: I should say that dendritic spikes probably act as a kind of conditional amplifier for synaptic events. The conditions that come to mind are spatial and temporal proximity. This does complicate the idea that relief of the NMDA Mg2+ block is used to detect coincidence of somatic action potentials with presynaptic glutamate release, suggesting that the Mg2+ block may also be used to detect coincidence of a single synaptic event with other nearby synaptic events.

Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#13
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The voltage change (i.e., depolarization) is not strictly local. In some cases, depending on the actual geometry of the dendrite and the particular complement of voltage-activated ion channels, the voltage change as a result of neurotransmitter release might lead to quite a distributed depolarization even without triggering a dendritic action potential. Conversely, an action potential initiated in the dendrites doesn…

Thanks for the answer. So just to close the loop and make sure I got it, a couple follow ups 'processing' in this case would refer to integrating signals/voltages/neurotransmitters from more than one neighboring neuron? How do they show that this was processing/integrating and not just particular sensitivity to one external stimulus? For 'processing' to be meaningful, would it not have to share the result? In other w…

I'm not a biologist and the parent poster seems to know in far more detail, but from a bunch of neuroscience lectures on how the dentritic spikes travel up to the soma, my takeaway (as a computer guy) was 'hmmm, it looks like a system implemented in FPGA layouts - the geometry features can work as logic gates or delays'; and 'hmmmm, it looks I could design a dendritic tree geometry for almost any boolean function of the inputs, so any computer-chip-like-functionality could be built out of them'.

I mean, if I needed (A xor B) and (C or D), then my impression is a single neuron with rather simple geometry and appropriate dendritic connections could calculate that in the sense that this neuron would spike iff the A,B,C,D neurons spiked as required by that formula; but since neurons tend to have much much more connections, then each neuron is technically capable of much more complex calculations, even if many of them in the end do something like 'spike iff any 100+ of my 1000 inputs are spiking'.

It's not so simple as that because timing is also relevant, and there were examples of known dendritic structures that do "processing" in terms that a neuron spikes if it receives A slightly before B, but doesn't spike if it receives A slightly after B; so it can be used for detecting motion direction and such.

Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#14
I hope people in the connectome camp take this to heart. I strongly doubt that modeling the connections of neurons will reveal the way the brain works. The mouse and rat brains are very similar in connectivity, but the behavior of the mouse and rat are quite different. One explanation is that the individual neurons are actually processing information differently, and so differences arise out of neuron functionality rather than connectivity. This research bolsters the argument that meaningful information processing occurs within individual neurons, and even at the sub-cellular level.

Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#15
post #6

Reminds me of Roger Penrose's assertion in Shadows of the Mind that the microtubules within the neurons might be doing the work - making each Neuron into a metaphorical computer with millions of transistors. This is a different idea but the same conclusion - Neurons aren't the lowest level of computational structure in the brain, which means we have been underestimating the complexity and power of the brain by many o…

And this is, somewhat ironically, very bad news for Mr. Kurzweil.

I think it's actually quite promising. We're good at cell biology but poor at systems biology. If we can convert neuroscience to understanding what types of neurons exist and how they function, that is probably very tractable. In comparison, even measuring the connectome is an insane problem, and modeling trillions of neurons to reveal brain function seems intractable.

Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#16
post #2

Amazing to have some evidence of the processing capabilities dendrites could possess. Though this only makes our understanding of the brain that much slimmer. With billions of neurons and dendrites interacting all the time, if each are compartmentalized we're going to have a difficult time coming up with a model to replicate the effects. Which, as I understand it, is our goal in an effort to better understand how the…

I wouldn't be discouraged - this is actually a way of computation that we could "read" by looking at the brain.

The dentritic 'computations' would depend on the geometry of the dendrite and the location of synaptic connections; so the current projects that want to slice a brain in thin slices, scan them, and reconstruct the neurons, would be able to build an exact map for that type of computation, simply by automatically converting each dendrite's connection geometry to a formula/model of that dendritic tree.

Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#17
post #11

This is the very sort of interaction that leads me to be very, very unoptimistic about ever seeing Moore's Law style runaway advancement in biotechnology. Biology, it seems, is deeply unabstractable . Ie, as one moves up the levels of organization, one rarely (never?) reaches a point where a higher level can be fully modeled without also fully modeling each of the lower levels. This is in sharp contrast to computer e…

Bioengineering and synthetic biology will never be like electrical engineering, but some of the differences can be exploited.

For one, you can use directed evolution to optimize a biological system without relying on rational design.

For another, biological development is massively flexible. Consider that when you evolve a longer arm, you don't need to mutate genes to ensure you have longer muscles, tendons, nerves, etc. In fact, you can grow an entirely new arm by just initiating a limb bud at the correct time in development. By contrast, in electrical engineering all design aspects are "rational" - when you change one part, you must change the other parts to compensate.

Modularity and reductionism are "problems" only in the sense that they reflect differences between our engineering strategy and the substrate we are trying to engineer. We must discover the engineering principles that match the substrate.

Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#18

Reminds me of Roger Penrose's assertion in Shadows of the Mind that the microtubules within the neurons might be doing the work - making each Neuron into a metaphorical computer with millions of transistors. This is a different idea but the same conclusion - Neurons aren't the lowest level of computational structure in the brain, which means we have been underestimating the complexity and power of the brain by many o…

We've always known that we need to model the 10^14 synapses (and their strengths) that connect neurons. The dendrite trees that connect these synapses to a soma have at most another 10^14 branching points, so modeling them all explicitly, in the worst case, only doubles the model size; but it might also give also significant possibilities for optimization, if these 'dendritic' calculations can be modelled as a simple formula.

Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#19
post #11

This is the very sort of interaction that leads me to be very, very unoptimistic about ever seeing Moore's Law style runaway advancement in biotechnology. Biology, it seems, is deeply unabstractable . Ie, as one moves up the levels of organization, one rarely (never?) reaches a point where a higher level can be fully modeled without also fully modeling each of the lower levels. This is in sharp contrast to computer e…

Biology may be very "unabstractable", but that doesn't mean we can't still learn enough about its high level behavior to create practical systems in its image. For example, it is unlikely that whatever structure or property of the brain makes it intelligent exists only at the molecular level, so we likely won't need to simulate the brain at that low of a level to create an intelligent machine.

Re: Evidence that dendrites actively process information in the brain

#20
post #6

Reminds me of Roger Penrose's assertion in Shadows of the Mind that the microtubules within the neurons might be doing the work - making each Neuron into a metaphorical computer with millions of transistors. This is a different idea but the same conclusion - Neurons aren't the lowest level of computational structure in the brain, which means we have been underestimating the complexity and power of the brain by many o…

And this is, somewhat ironically, very bad news for Mr. Kurzweil.

Actually, this may be very good news for Kurzweil. In his last book "How to Create a Mind", he lays out a theory centered around a "pattern-recognizer" unit that is repeated throughout the columns and regions of the neocortex. In his book, he assumed it to be made up of several neurons wired in a specific manner, but if each neuron can do some hierarchical processing of its own then the pattern-recognizer might be reducible to a single neuron.
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