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Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

theguardian.com

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Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#61

Post by sp332 »

jasonlotito wrote: post #18
r0h1n wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe the US has never intentionally targeted civilians? Example 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/us/soldier-gets-life-witho... Example 2: http://www.collateralmurder.com/ Example 3: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-thin... Sadly, the second part of your comment still remains true. These wars (plural), are pretty similar to all wars because US soldiers and forces have at times been…

Example's one and two aren't the US. They are individuals. So unless you are suggesting that Saudi Arabia or Germany or Japan are intentionally targeting civilians, it doesn't hold water. Example 2 also doesn't bolster your claim. I've never seen any proof that the US has ever had a policy of targeting civilians. Yes, collateral damage exists, but that's not the same thing. Now, if you can produce something that talk…

Example 2 shows soldiers following the rules of engagement at the time. They even radioed in to get an (admittedly cursory) O.K. to shoot the people. They did what they were told to do, and the U.S. military told them to shoot those people.

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#62

Post by itchitawa »

res0nat0r wrote: post #36
srean wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cant see why this comment is getting downvoted.

Probably because he purposefully ignored mentioning the two non military buildings in NYC that were also hit.

"part of the support network either through willful ignorance or" this includes all Americans who pay taxes, vote for the government, etc. Ultimately everyone shares some blame but when we see someone who's more directly responsible than ourselves, we tend to blame them and forgive ourselves. As a non-America, I see Obama voters as responsible because he told them he would attack Pakistan with drones as part of his first election campaign.

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#63

Post by streetnigga »

jasonlotito wrote: post #58
abalone wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's akin to dropping bombs on military targets during WW II. You couldn't have picked a worse example. Innocent civilians were widely targeted in WWII. Entire cities were subjected to terrorist bombing campaigns specifically to "break the morale of the population which occupies it" and "make the people conscious of constant personal danger." WWII pretty much invented large-scale terrorism justified as military nec…

I'll admit I could have picked a better example, but I also made a point to specify military targets in my comment for a reason.

> I also made a point to specify military targets in my comment for a reason.

Which is why the user above responded. US justification for these strikes is because they are deemed "military targets," and often the intel behind the strikes themselves is extremely tenuous. While on not the scale of WWII firebombing the terrorist aspects of it cannot be ignored.

Much US government documentation on their strikes speaks of the psychological aspects of those under a drone's strike zone. They cast a terrorized population in terms of being "less prone to supporting Alqaeda Top Man #85032" or other nonsense that only addresses the social impact in the narrowest terms to ensure victory can be declared in some way by the author.

In the end the population below still feels terrorized by the presence of "justice from above" with no due recourse. This is completely aside from what those in the US government wish to call it.

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#64

Post by zzsleepzz »

srean wrote: post #26

My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal. At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity o…

@srean,

There's no such thing as Hindu extremism or Hindu terrorism. It's just a reaction to atrocious Islamic terrorism activities that happened/happening in India. The increase of jihadi extremists and sleeper cells in India are what that terrifies Indians.

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#65

Post by calbear81 »

itchitawa wrote: post #62
res0nat0r wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because he purposefully ignored mentioning the two non military buildings in NYC that were also hit.

"part of the support network either through willful ignorance or" this includes all Americans who pay taxes, vote for the government, etc. Ultimately everyone shares some blame but when we see someone who's more directly responsible than ourselves, we tend to blame them and forgive ourselves. As a non-America, I see Obama voters as responsible because he told them he would attack Pakistan with drones as part of his f…

I agree that as an American who voted for those in power that I am partially responsible and would be a fair target. Living in a democracy means accepting that collectively we have chosen someone to make decisions on our behalf and even if we disagree we have chosen to operate under a set of rules that govern how we disagree and how we change things (election, etc.)

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#66

Post by eruditely »

rjuyal wrote: post #37
jasonlotito wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the intent isn't to terrorize or murder innocent people, but to hit "military" targets. It's akin to dropping bombs on military targets during WW II. Just because they are military targets doesn't mean innocent people aren't killed. So it's classified as something else. And before you go shooting the messenger, keep in mind your asking about classification. If you want to disagree and suggest that it's still…

Few innocents died while killing terrorists. I see no harm in that. In any case that single terrorist would have killed lots of innocent. That innocent could be from USA, Russia, Israel, India. And at that time there will be hue and cry saying it is intelligence failure. Innocents will die either by terrorists or may be by US drones.

terrorists do not have a good kill death ratio

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#67

Post by vidarh »

codex wrote: post #10
peterkelly wrote: post #5

Can someone explain to me why this isn't classed as terrorism or murder when it's done by the US military?

Do you believe the US is intentionally targeting civilians? If not, this war seems pretty similar to all wars.

I don't think the government intentionally target civilians, but I do think they don't care if they target civilians unless it causes a too big PR problem.

And I don't think they've cared much since at least the firebombing of Japan and Germany towards the end of WWII, when it became blatantly clear that they could get away with indiscriminately killing hundreds of thousands of civilians without consequences at home.

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#68

Post by bruceb »

zzsleepzz wrote: post #64
srean wrote: post #26

My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal. At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity o…

@srean, There's no such thing as Hindu extremism or Hindu terrorism. It's just a reaction to atrocious Islamic terrorism activities that happened/happening in India. The increase of jihadi extremists and sleeper cells in India are what that terrifies Indians.

@zzsleepzz The RSS seem extreme to me and to a lot of Indians who fear voting for Modi because they may come with him. (not saying this is the case but that is the fear).

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#69

Post by allochthon »

ekianjo wrote: post #55
jasonlotito wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the intent isn't to terrorize or murder innocent people, but to hit "military" targets. It's akin to dropping bombs on military targets during WW II. Just because they are military targets doesn't mean innocent people aren't killed. So it's classified as something else. And before you go shooting the messenger, keep in mind your asking about classification. If you want to disagree and suggest that it's still…

Except that there is not war going on between Pakistan and the US. There should be no rationale to attack "military targets" on foreign soil because you have no authority there. Would the US tolerate Pakistan drones hovering above their schools and picking up targets at their will ?

For me, this is a key question. Another one -- would the US population allow drone strikes to take out terrorists within its own borders?

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#70

Post by lostlogin »

zzsleepzz wrote: post #64
srean wrote: post #26

My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal. At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity o…

@srean, There's no such thing as Hindu extremism or Hindu terrorism. It's just a reaction to atrocious Islamic terrorism activities that happened/happening in India. The increase of jihadi extremists and sleeper cells in India are what that terrifies Indians.

Wow. That can't go unaddressed. Two wrongs don't make a right and "just a reaction" is a pretty terrible justification for murder. The death rate from racial problems is too high, and the only way to stop it is to stop doing it. http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/107-killed...
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