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Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

theguardian.com

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Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#51

Post by beedogs »

nebulasri wrote: post #39
srean wrote: post #26

My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal. At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity o…

dear srean, It would help a lot if you go through history of India. Also learn more about Jihad and how it is funded.

Pretty unhelpful comment.

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#52

Post by jasonlotito »

dobbsbob wrote: post #24
jasonlotito wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the intent isn't to terrorize or murder innocent people, but to hit "military" targets. It's akin to dropping bombs on military targets during WW II. Just because they are military targets doesn't mean innocent people aren't killed. So it's classified as something else. And before you go shooting the messenger, keep in mind your asking about classification. If you want to disagree and suggest that it's still…

Actually, the intent is to terrorize. You are utilizing systematic violence to coerce an entire population for political reasons, and deliberately targeting or disregarding the safety of non-combatants to achieve this goal. There also isn't a war in Waziristan. Your comparison to WWII is total BS

Deliberately targeting non-combatants? No. Disregarding their safety? That's probably closer to the truth. But just because you are a non-combatant doesn't mean you aren't supporting combatants. And that's when tough decisions have to be made. It's a horrible choice that must be made.

As for WWII, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#World_W...

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#53

Post by beedogs »

mcantelon wrote: post #50
srean wrote: post #26

My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal. At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity o…

The CIA also encouraged jihadism while the USSR was occupying Afghanistan.

Indeed. A lot of people seem to gloss over the fact that the US trained and funded Bin Laden himself, which was all well and good when he was on "our side".

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#54

Post by jasonlotito »

res0nat0r wrote: post #46
r0h1n wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A country is an abstract concept. On the battlefield, it is represented by its soldiers in uniform. There is no Uncle Sam in a uniform who represents the "US" collectively. If I take your argument to the extreme, it'll be tough to hold any army anywhere in the world to account. Because they can always attribute it to "individuals".

Exactly. Which is why he is asking for evidence that there is a currently US military policy in place that states soldiers are to intentionally target civilians in the "war on terror". Individuals acting on their own committing crimes is much different than an official policy, ordered to be enforced by the military chain of command.

This is what I'm asking for. Thanks.

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#55

Post by ekianjo »

jasonlotito wrote: post #16
peterkelly wrote: post #5

Can someone explain to me why this isn't classed as terrorism or murder when it's done by the US military?

Because the intent isn't to terrorize or murder innocent people, but to hit "military" targets. It's akin to dropping bombs on military targets during WW II. Just because they are military targets doesn't mean innocent people aren't killed. So it's classified as something else. And before you go shooting the messenger, keep in mind your asking about classification. If you want to disagree and suggest that it's still…

Except that there is not war going on between Pakistan and the US. There should be no rationale to attack "military targets" on foreign soil because you have no authority there. Would the US tolerate Pakistan drones hovering above their schools and picking up targets at their will ?

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#56

Post by burntsushi »

jasonlotito wrote: post #44
coldtea wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the intent isn't to terrorize or murder innocent people, but to hit "military" targets. (...) Cue the pedantic replies. Oh, the irony. That's a pedantic distinction, if I ever saw one. Not to mention nothing about it is correct (perhaps that's why you felt the need to use quotes for the word military). Such strikes are not done as part of war and do not target military targets -- they were used in places li…

> blah blah military in quotes I used it in quotes because I was thinking of cases where I'm not sure how it would be classified. Assumed base of operations that turns out to be false? Regardless, nothing as sinister as you imply. As for not being at war with Pakistan, would that make a difference to you?

> As for not being at war with Pakistan, would that make a difference to you?

I think you missed coldtea's point. I suspect he pointed that out because he thought it would make a difference to you. e.g., "War sucks. Innocent people die." ... But we're not at war with Pakistan. So what? Drone strikes suck. Innocent people die?

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#57

Post by cabalamat »

einhverfr wrote: post #30
peterkelly wrote: post #5

Can someone explain to me why this isn't classed as terrorism or murder when it's done by the US military?

Because state actors can't be terrorists. Now it could be a war crime, and indeed arguably we tried Milosevic for less.

> Because state actors can't be terrorists.

Can I take it you're unaware that the word was coined to describe a state?

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#58

Post by jasonlotito »

abalone wrote: post #47
jasonlotito wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the intent isn't to terrorize or murder innocent people, but to hit "military" targets. It's akin to dropping bombs on military targets during WW II. Just because they are military targets doesn't mean innocent people aren't killed. So it's classified as something else. And before you go shooting the messenger, keep in mind your asking about classification. If you want to disagree and suggest that it's still…

> It's akin to dropping bombs on military targets during WW II. You couldn't have picked a worse example. Innocent civilians were widely targeted in WWII. Entire cities were subjected to terrorist bombing campaigns specifically to "break the morale of the population which occupies it" and "make the people conscious of constant personal danger." WWII pretty much invented large-scale terrorism justified as military nec…

I'll admit I could have picked a better example, but I also made a point to specify military targets in my comment for a reason.

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#59

Post by mcantelon »

beedogs wrote: post #53
mcantelon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CIA also encouraged jihadism while the USSR was occupying Afghanistan.

Indeed. A lot of people seem to gloss over the fact that the US trained and funded Bin Laden himself, which was all well and good when he was on "our side".

The memory hole certainly swallows a lot of stuff.

http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/rea...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3d1_1374168674

Re: Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

#60

Post by prometheuspk »

srean wrote: post #26

My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal. At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity o…

As a Pakistani I can say that our current leadership has no spine.

In addition to that the general population has been led to believe that everyone is out to get them (i.e. The righteous Muslims). You should have seen the stuff said about Malala. Even she was some kind of conspiracy against Muslims.

The TTP is real, no doubt about that (you'll find deniers here too). But the political resolve lacks because of no majority public support of the army operation in Waziristan.

India was saved from the hegemony due to public resolve to fight for it. Here everyone is either too demotivated or on the wrong side of the equation.

I would factor in self-righteousness too (e.g. Mumtaz Qadri). Once that entitlement mindset ends, only then will things become clear to the public.

EDIT: BTW you should check this (http://on.fb.me/17XcV7p) out to see the Malala bashing & the distrust of anyone but themselves.

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