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Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

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Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#131
post #43

Here is a wild concept, mandate that people take care of people. Use the government only to enforce this. The government is full of corruption and waste, they are innefective in matters that require an actual soul (such as people who have made mistakes, people who have no reason to care, impoverished people, prisoners ETC.)... What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to…

Sounds like a recipe for even worse corruption. Pay into your friend's charity, have your friend pay into your charity. Make a deal with a homeless person that if you get back half of what you give them you'll give them a lot of money. You can continue on your own.

>Sounds like a recipe for even worse corruption. Pay into your friend's charity, have your friend pay into your charity.

I never said that there would be no rules or regulations. If fact, I mentioned that the government would be needed for this purpose. I don't claim that there would be no abuses, but I can't see how it could possibly be as riddled with abuse as our current system. I think with the taxpaying citizens personally involved, they will demand a high level of adherence and enforcement. They will also feel a greater sense of personal violation when someone they know abuses the system. I know several people who claim that they know so and so who are collecting welfare and making all kinds of money under the table. If they feel a personal with that money and that system, they are more likely to report that person or at least discourage them. Likewise, the fraudster is going to feel more pressure by the whole movement to avoid committing the abuse.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#132

Here is a wild concept, mandate that people take care of people. Use the government only to enforce this. The government is full of corruption and waste, they are innefective in matters that require an actual soul (such as people who have made mistakes, people who have no reason to care, impoverished people, prisoners ETC.)... What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to…

> What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to help with it. Then it would be spent on pet shelters and the national trust instead of homeless shelters and the national health, because middle class people fundamentally don't like poor people, and are mildly frustrated taxes go to them at all, except as a means to clear the streets of nuisance beggars. Photogenically poor…

Did I not mention that there would be rules/laws involved? You may say that those with lots of money can get those laws bent in their favor, and generally this is true with the government. The people of America today are so uninvolved and uninformed that this happens without repercussions.

With this system, people are going to be watching things a bit closer. They are personally vested in this whole process.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#133

Here is a wild concept, mandate that people take care of people. Use the government only to enforce this. The government is full of corruption and waste, they are innefective in matters that require an actual soul (such as people who have made mistakes, people who have no reason to care, impoverished people, prisoners ETC.)... What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to…

>What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to help with it. You realise that, especially where I live, one can make tax deductible donations to a wide variety of organisations? I give away thousands and get to write off much of the tax. In fact, I give away a few thousand and can technically qualify for a different tax bracket, I believe. >We would have charities all ove…

>You realise that, especially where I live, one can make tax deductible donations to a wide variety of organisations? I give away thousands and get to write off much of the tax. In fact, I give away a few thousand and can technically qualify for a different tax bracket, I believe.

But most people doing this are still experiencing a net negative. You might donate $1000 to save $200 off your taxes. This is a rather small incentive.

>No, you would have charities spending this money on advertising and gimmicks to get their share of your dollar. Some charities today spend large proportions of their budgets advertising and engaging in lawsuits (e.g. Susan B Komen)

Fine, but these organizations would not last. People want results, not more/better commercials. Did you not read my whole post? I mentioned that these orgs would be performance analyzed and all the data published. All their financial records would be public.

>What the government does is use it's uniquely large scale to help people. Education, healthcare, housing, welfare - for many countries in the world, having the government provide these services results in an relatively efficient system. I for one would rather pay the Medicare Levy in Australia than pay for private healthcare in the US - last time I was living there, the US system left me about $1500 worse off, and that was a year without any medical mishaps.

It is far from efficient, even if it was - the greatest benefit would be humanizing citizens (this would naturally branch into and benefit many other facets of society). Also I am talking about welfare/social services here, not medical services.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#134

Here is a wild concept, mandate that people take care of people. Use the government only to enforce this. The government is full of corruption and waste, they are innefective in matters that require an actual soul (such as people who have made mistakes, people who have no reason to care, impoverished people, prisoners ETC.)... What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to…

> Here is a wild concept, mandate that people take care of people. Use the government only to enforce this. > [...] > That is something that no government could ever accomplish. I think there is an inconsistency in your argument. You've just suggested a mode of action by government, not something government cannot do. As to the particular mechanism, however, it is unlikely to work. The basic idea... > We would have c…

>I think there is an inconsistency in your argument. You've just suggested a mode of action by government, not something government cannot do.

You have a logical point but I think everyone understood what I was saying just fine - so your point does not apply to the reality and context of the situation. Some might say you are "trolling" myself, I think that you are just very anal.

>...is fundamentally flawed. The theoretical efficiency of competitive markets is intimately tied to the assumption that both the benefits and costs are known to and born by the participants in the decision making processes, aligning rational self-interest with efficient decision making. In the charities competing for money from givers to provide services to those in need, the features which make markets theoretically efficient do not apply.

Your argument may again carry weight by logical reasoning, but that is your fallacy. The competition would be maintained by the citizens emotional and humane (these are not logical things) drive to see the money coming out of their pocket actually directly and effectively help someone in a meaningful and lasting manner. That is what the competition is all about.

>That's because bad news is good for selling media (the perception that the world is a dangerous place and you need to keep consuming the media source from which you got that impression to know where the next imminent danger is very useful to holding an audience, independently of any connection it has to real circumstances), not because lives aren't turned around by welfare and other social services.

You missed my point. I was merely stating this example because the majority of people never see any tax dollars taken from their paycheck helping a fellow citizen. They never see any emotional or inspiring linked good come of it. The majority see what is in their local community and what is on the news. They have no natural connection to the needy. This is a very bad thing IMO.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charities existed, in robust force, for a long time before the government stepped in and confiscated so much money from people they didn't have much left to care for others as they saw fit. We had charities all over the place competing for this money, and did produce far better results than the abysmal record of the state/federal social services, until the government stepped in and made it terribly difficult to provi…

Gubbamint is keeping the hungry from these bushels of bread not fit for human consumption, why can't they see the harm they're doing? Isn't bad food better than nothing? >realizing that something done poorly is better than nothing and requiring something better leads to nothing Oh my god you actually typed it. Or we can adequately fund our social programs so that they are held to a certain standard and don't depend o…

I would think one day even those like you would realize... Money is rarely the answer. Same with our prison and criminal justice systems, education, ETC.

Spending has ramped up dramatically in these areas and yet the results are either not improved or worse...

What would you consider "adequately funding" our social programs.

More government(especially federal) is not the answer. Your type is always saying, just a bit more, just a bit bigger, even when things get even worse you think a bigger government can fix it.

How blind you are not to see that the government often caused the problem to begin with.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#136

Here is a wild concept, mandate that people take care of people. Use the government only to enforce this. The government is full of corruption and waste, they are innefective in matters that require an actual soul (such as people who have made mistakes, people who have no reason to care, impoverished people, prisoners ETC.)... What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to…

mandate that people take care of people. Use the government only to enforce this. That sounds far more difficult, subject to corruption, and less efficient than having the government care for other people directly. Sure, having everybody be good to each other could be much more efficient than government aid, but having the government mandate and define "good to each other" is so very difficult.

I encourage you to become more familiar with the IRS and the Dept of Welfare and Social Services, the cost they ensue, and the level of fraud/corruption/waste.

I also encourage you to personally meed and observe those being served by WSS, see the ineffectiveness and vicious cycle these people are trapped in.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#137
post #116

Here is a wild concept, mandate that people take care of people. Use the government only to enforce this. The government is full of corruption and waste, they are innefective in matters that require an actual soul (such as people who have made mistakes, people who have no reason to care, impoverished people, prisoners ETC.)... What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to…

> The government is full of corruption and waste, they are innefective in matters that require an actual soul. Something totally unheard of in charities or churches for that matter? > What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to help with it. I cannot see how this would not lead to a very disproportional distribution of welfare. Very few people, I guess, would rather giv…

>Something totally unheard of in charities or churches for that matter?

The difference here is that charities can easily be replaced or you can choose a different one. There would definitely be oversight to expose problems and shut down fraudsters.

>I cannot see how this would not lead to a very disproportional distribution of welfare. Very few people, I guess, would rather give their money to rehabilitated murderers or sex offenders than to orphans or abused women for example.

You would be surprised. Sure those like you would give it to orphans and widows. Also, charities generally don't "turn down" people because they just got out of jail. If fact, I suppose that it could be mandated that they don't.

There are easy common sense rules for all these types of concerns.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that mandatory required charity is anything more than asking for trouble. People should give, people should help, but they should do it willingly. If you force them to do it, they will resent both the charity and you. That is a scenario that offers short term benefits at best.

>'m not sure that mandatory required charity is anything more than asking for trouble. People should give, people should help, but they should do it willingly. If you force them to do it, they will resent both the charity and you. That is a scenario that offers short term benefits at best. Every study on the subject has consistently found that giving creates a sense of happiness and fulfillment. These feelings more o…

>Every study on the subject has consistently found that giving creates a sense of happiness and fulfillment.

Willful giving. You cannot force charity, people will resent it as they will resent anything else you force them to do. As others have suggested, it will become nothing more an exercise in tax dodging in the best case scenario.

>I may very well be wrong here, but I don't think someone with your opinion has ever given directly to a needy person...

Also, don't be a passive aggressive asshole.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#139
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poorly executed centralization easily turns into communism, which fails spectacularly on anything but tribal scales. Decentralization sure has its problems, but tends to beat the alternatives. Of course, where you end up in each system and how you benefit/suffer there may influence whether you agree.

I certainly wasn't advising against decentralizing. Only warning against thinking of it as an easily implemented no-brainer, a la "just decentralize everything, and everything is going to start working smoothly, like magic". Naive libertarianism hasn't proved to be more effective than naive Communism, and most people including myself believe it isn't.

Wasn't intending to contradict you; sorry if it came off that way.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#140
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to the relationship between savings and investment, and the role of banks in there, ask yourself the following question: Suppose that Alice decides that, from this month on, she will start putting aside 10% of her monthly income into a long-term savings account. Will this decision cause the bank to make more loans? By default, the answer seems to be no. After all, banks lend out money when creditworthy borrowers s…

If a bank gains extra money in the vault, won't it lower the interest rate it's offering on loans to try to attract a credit worthy borrower so the money isn't just sitting there?

Perhaps. There are two problems that significantly weaken that kind of transmission mechanism:

1. It is not clear how sensitive to interest rates business are anyway. If you have an X increase of savings, which reduces business revenue by X but also decreases the interest rate by Y, which of those effects is stronger? It seems to depend a lot on circumstances.

2. To a first approximation, there is no incentive for banks to decrease their interest rates in the first place, because they won't have extra money in the vault!

This may seem counter-intuitive, but it follows from how the banking system works: If you transfer money to bank A and leave it there, the bank is initially going to have more money in its account at the central bank (aka "reserves" aka high-powered money). This earns zero or negligible interest, and so the bank does have an incentive to get rid of it.

However, when you did your transfer, that central bank money (aka "reserves") arriving at bank A did not come out of nowhere. It came from the bank you made the transfer from, say bank B. B now likely has a short-fall of reserves (because while bank B has "lost" X amount of reserves, and the sum of customer accounts has been reduced by X, its reserve requirements have only decreased by rX, where r is the reserve ratio).

So, bank B will be happy to borrow (X - rX) reserves back from bank A, probably at current market rates, while bank A must hold on to the remaining rX due to its own increased reserve requirements. Everything is back in balance without any change of interest rates.

Things are slightly different if you put your money into a different type of account or bank bond in such a way that the sum of all reserve requirements in the banking system decreases. In that case, banks have surplus reserve requirements and will therefore bid down interest rates in the interbank market.

Under normal circumstances, the central bank - which has a fixed interest rate target - will step up and sell assets in exchange for reserves so that the surplus reserves disappear. Hence, banks still do not have any incentive to reduce the interest rate that they offer to the public!

This really only changes when the central bank decides to change its interest rate target.

What about interest rates offered to customers? It seems that those really tend to be calculated as cost-plus based on the central bank's rate target (with some long-term expectation thrown in). Plus, they probably move with some delay because that market isn't so fast. Since the target rate has been at zero for a very long time now, savings behavior really shouldn't make a difference.

Mostly though, I think it's the first point that matters: Business decisions aren't that interest rate-sensitive in the first place, at least compared to other considerations.

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