Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department • Hacker News Board

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#71

Post by TheCowboy » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 7:47 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #65

Blaming regulations for your decision to get a crappier warranty or SLA than you could demand elsewhere is like blaming your car manufacturer for the availability and price of fuel.

It's more like the car manufacturer is providing updates and bug fixes for your car, which then renders your windshield wipers or some other significant feature useless, and this problem occurs for a large number of users, then attempting to use the support forums provided by the manufacturer only to find the manufacturer not only does not respond to posts but also deletes useful posts, and also does not provide an easy way for users to downgrade so it fixes the problem.

If the only solution is to purchase a better warranty, then it seems that creates a perverse incentive for Apple to break devices which each upgrade, and only provide fixes and service to people who pay more money, in order to bilk customers to maximize profits.

I wouldn't consider this an ethical or honest way to do business with users. It is a completely valid criticism of a way of doing business.

For emphasis, this isn't a unique user-created problem, this is a problem that is originated with Apple.

It's also issues like this that will ensure that my current and first set of Apple devices will be my last Apple devices.

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#72

Post by Perceval » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 7:57 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #70

caryme wrote: post #64

Forums are tough. I can see why Apple opts not to participate, although I disagree with their decision. It also seems to be consistent with the Apple ethos to remove overly negative posts and calls to action from the apple.com domain. Again, I don't like this, but I'm not surprised. At Microsoft (at least on my team) we are encouraged to be active in our forums. We use them to keep a pulse on the issues we are having…

> I can see why Apple opts not to participate As Lessig notes, they're engaging actively in censorship. That's certainly their right, but it's not the same thing as not participating.

Requiring that posts stay on topic isn't censorship. Terms of Service are Terms of Service. There are lots and lots of other Apple/Mac/iPhone forums around the web.

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#73

Post by mverwijs » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 8:00 PM UTC

Perceval wrote: post #72

justin66 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can see why Apple opts not to participate As Lessig notes, they're engaging actively in censorship. That's certainly their right, but it's not the same thing as not participating.

Requiring that posts stay on topic isn't censorship. Terms of Service are Terms of Service. There are lots and lots of other Apple/Mac/iPhone forums around the web.

They could, I'd think, do both. Censor of topic, yet confirm the issue and take steps to fix it.

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#74

Post by aray » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 8:14 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #70

caryme wrote: post #64

Forums are tough. I can see why Apple opts not to participate, although I disagree with their decision. It also seems to be consistent with the Apple ethos to remove overly negative posts and calls to action from the apple.com domain. Again, I don't like this, but I'm not surprised. At Microsoft (at least on my team) we are encouraged to be active in our forums. We use them to keep a pulse on the issues we are having…

> I can see why Apple opts not to participate As Lessig notes, they're engaging actively in censorship. That's certainly their right, but it's not the same thing as not participating.

I have seen many product forums where threads go on and on, and useful information is buried in a avalanche of noise.

On the other hand, censorship/terms-of-service removal is a grey area and by removing the information you're removing the ability of readers to make judgement calls for themselves.

Really, it would be nice if there was a way to filter/optimize the noise of normal forum spew into just the useful bits, while still having context/links to the original ginormous piles. Seems to get the best of both worlds.

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#75

Post by PMan74 » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 8:17 PM UTC

epo wrote: post #68

jamesbritt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key point of Lessig's post is not that Apple reps do not post there, it is that Apple reps remove posts that offer tangible, actionable, information, for flimsy reasons. A forum use posted information about how to get an issue resolved by exercising one's warranty rights; that post was removed. Lessig reposted that info; it was also removed, and Lessig was informed that the forum does not allow for "polls or peti…

One problem is that warranty rights vary around the world, so any advice relating to specific rights will be irrelevant to most people.

> so any advice relating to specific rights will be irrelevant to most people.

Most? Really? I would have thought that there would have been very few (no?) countries where the product being broken by a software update would not have entitled the buyer to some remedy.

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#76

Post by vdaniuk » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 8:52 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #17

Sadly this isn't news. Apple have been doing this for the last 5 years at least. I support a large fleet of Macpros (Ha, yeah "fast" and "magical" with 5 year old procs in them) Everytime an OS upgrade comes along something is silently broken. Trying to get support is a nightmare. For example when they changed which version of kerberos they used without any warning. Or changing the syntax of automount. Apple are shit…

“It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institution and merely lukewarm defenders in those who gain by the new ones. ” ― Niccolò Machiavelli

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#77

Post by vdaniuk » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 8:54 PM UTC

scrabble wrote: post #41

w0utert wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is shit, Google is shit, Microsoft is shit, and the list continues... Not trying to defend anyone here, but with so many customers, products, software versions, it's no surprise problems will occur, which are sometimes inappropriately handled. This goes for any company, Apple is no exception here. I have years of anecdotal evidence of only positive experiences with Apple products and customer service, the only…

I like Yahoo. My ISP uses their mail service as their web mail access. Through many updates to Yahoo's web mail app, I always neglected not to update and was able to continue using my more than 10 year old mail interface, until recently when I finally decided to agree to update.

You like Yahoo, but the technical debt of supporting legacy systems is mounting every year. Is that a sustainable strategy? I would rather be inconvenienced by consntant change than risk a decline in the rate of innovation. I want to see singularity happen, you know?

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#78

Post by vetinari » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 9:10 PM UTC

caryme wrote: post #64

Forums are tough. I can see why Apple opts not to participate, although I disagree with their decision. It also seems to be consistent with the Apple ethos to remove overly negative posts and calls to action from the apple.com domain. Again, I don't like this, but I'm not surprised. At Microsoft (at least on my team) we are encouraged to be active in our forums. We use them to keep a pulse on the issues we are having…

I hope that you are not talking about social.technet.microsoft.com. No offense, but I always dread, when I search for a solution and the results contain this site at top positions. I've never found a solution for my problem there, just moderators following a script, without trying to really help.

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#79

Post by caryme » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 9:14 PM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #78

caryme wrote: post #64

Forums are tough. I can see why Apple opts not to participate, although I disagree with their decision. It also seems to be consistent with the Apple ethos to remove overly negative posts and calls to action from the apple.com domain. Again, I don't like this, but I'm not surprised. At Microsoft (at least on my team) we are encouraged to be active in our forums. We use them to keep a pulse on the issues we are having…

I hope that you are not talking about social.technet.microsoft.com. No offense, but I always dread, when I search for a solution and the results contain this site at top positions. I've never found a solution for my problem there, just moderators following a script, without trying to really help.

I'm talking about answers.microsoft.com.

Re: Wow, or from the When-Apple-Became-the-Borg Department

#80

Post by fphhotchips » Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 9:55 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #42

avenger123 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's obsession with quality should not include leaving user's in a lurch. I find it surprising you are defending this forum behavior by Apple via their obsession with quality. I see it as the exact opposite. If Apple was obsessed with quality they would not leave user's hanging dry in a forum. As I can imagine, the forum is a at resort for a lot of people. At a minimum Apple should have some type of escalation pol…

Apple offers two streams for any product - "good" and "perfect". Tech support over a forum is "cheap" or "free". So they don't do it. This behaviour is perfectly consistent with everything else Apple does, and it protects their brand image that way - with Apple, you either get The Good Stuff or it doesn't exist. Forum-based support? Doesn't exist. Which is one of the many reasons that I don't buy Apple products. Want…

That's crap. If you can't support your products at the price point you set, your price point is too low. This Apple Care business is like extended warranties at rip off electronics stores.

(Edit: Not that you're wrong, just that it sucks.)