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Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

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Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#81
post #5

As a matter of fact, society has not a single valid reason to allow concentration of excessive wealth on some kind of restricted group or "elite" (as, by the way, also promoted erroneously by the idea of the "American Dream"). Here are a few facts to explain that this concept is not sane at all: - Excessive wealth is usually hoarded (in bank accounts), not used: But if you want the economy to work the most (creating…

> - Excessive wealth is usually hoarded (in bank accounts), not used: But if you want the economy to work the most (creating jobs, etc.), you need to make money circulate as much as possible (which is not what rich people usually do). Another economical fallacy. When you put money in the bank, it's not standing there doing nothing. Savings are invested, loaned, used to create additional value. That's why banks want y…

Okay, so I agree that money in the bank doesn't do nothing. However, ultimately one of the main reasons why we want a thriving economy is to raise the quality of life for the people. If you look at the trends over time, in real terms, the rich have been getting richer and the poor have been getting poorer. If you look at other countries around the world, this seems to be a thing that happens as income disparity increases. Basically, even if having a concentration of wealth doesn't make the economy bad (that point is debatable) the benefits of the economy are not fairly shared by the people.

Which brings us to the next point, which is a bit of a mess, so I'm going to have to pick it apart in detail. Firstly, you are essentially saying that all people are not equal, and so it is not "fair" for wealth to be shared equally. This is true, but irrelevant. No-one has asked for wealth to be shared equally, we are asking for less of a concentration of wealth. We are saying "the system is not fair" you are replying "total egalitarianism is not fair" - irrelevant! Secondly you say that the only thing a society needs to do in order to be fair is make sure that everyone has the same rights in regard to the law. This is either obviously false or impossibly hard, depending on how you define the application of law. If you just think that the rules should be applied equally, then this is obviously not enough to ensure a fair society. For example, you could make it cost $100,000 to run for office. This is a rule that may be fairly applied to everyone, no matter their wealth. It just so happens that only rich people will be able to afford it. For another example, you could have entrenched media companies that act as gatekeepers into the political process (as we currently do). Now, nothing stops an individual with no connections to these entrenched interests from starting their own media empire - but even if they had a chance of succeeding, it still forms a massive barrier to entry that could hardly be called fair. If you expand your idea of what the law covers to include such things, then you're essentially saying is that the only thing society should do is have fair laws that are applied fairly, where a person of merit has an equal chance of success regardless of the circumstances of their birth. Which is great, but impossibly hard and definitely not what is happening right now. The third thing you say is that anything beyond the fair application of law is a race to make everyone the same. This is clearly not true. I don't want to live in a world where everyone is the same. I just don't think our current system is fair. Personally I think that everyone deserves to be fed, clothed, sheltered, educated and given access to healthcare just as a participation prize for being a human being. I think we can easily afford it (for proof, just look at countries with low income disparity). The set of standards I am describing is what people call human decency. It is not total egalitarianism. The last thing you say, almost in passing, is that making everyone the same in every aspect renders everyone poor by default. This is a strangely pessimistic view of matters. If you rendered everyone the same, then you'd render everyone average income by default, not poor. Unless you were talking about poverty in an objective rather than relative sense, which is either untrue or else you have very high standards. Even if we did descend into some kind of egalitarian nightmare where everyone was provided for equally (oh lord! the horror!) the quality of life would be fine. There's plenty of resources to go round, especially in the West where we have a lot of wealth. The real problem would be providing incentives for people to work, but I doubt that was the point you were making. (Incidentally we could, for example, create a currency that affords social status and narcotics rather than general material goods - which is, I suppose, just a streamlined version our current incentive system.)

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#82
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Excessive wealth is usually hoarded (in bank accounts), not used: But if you want the economy to work the most (creating jobs, etc.), you need to make money circulate as much as possible (which is not what rich people usually do). Another economical fallacy. When you put money in the bank, it's not standing there doing nothing. Savings are invested, loaned, used to create additional value. That's why banks want y…

Okay, so I agree that money in the bank doesn't do nothing. However, ultimately one of the main reasons why we want a thriving economy is to raise the quality of life for the people. If you look at the trends over time, in real terms, the rich have been getting richer and the poor have been getting poorer. If you look at other countries around the world, this seems to be a thing that happens as income disparity incre…

> If you look at the trends over time, in real terms, the rich have been getting richer and the poor have been getting poorer

No, this is totally false. You can say that the gap between very rich people and poor people has been expanding, but both groups have been getting richer, and as a whole the world is clearly getting out of poverty. The poors are getting less poor from generation to generation. And it's fundamentally "normal" that the rich get richer faster than the poor because if you have 10% of asset increase every year for both groups (just a random number) anyway the larger assets will grow faster (in relative terms) and the gap will increase. This being said, the poor do get richer over time, there's numerous presentations on that subject on TEDtalks from different researchers. Don't deny the facts.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#83
It works when there a private companies giving the money. When it's the government, like here in Brazil, it turns into vote buying, they start to scare the poor saying if the other party wins the elections, they will stop giving money and shit.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#84
post #71
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But "the government" is people. Society said, "let people take care of people", and government is the answer to how to do that. The government is "full of corruption and waste" because people are. We constantly try to find ways to organize society (and government as a crucial part of society) in ways that minimize corruption and waste, or mitigate their effects. > That is something that no government could ever accom…

Government being responsible for social security is a pretty new idea. The charity driven system he describes was the main way of doing things through the 1900s. Churches, professions (benevolent funds), and clubs (as in masons) looked first after their own, and their children, when they fell on hard times. That was what they were for. That was why they were so vital in society. You remember in Oliver Twist, where ch…

I totally agree with the sentiment, but "government being responsible for social security" is certainly not a new idea. The bible [1] established a sort of central welfare, and the Roman Empire provided welfare as well[2].

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe#Mosaic_law: The third year was called "the year of tithing" (Deuteronomy 26:12-14) in which the Israelites set aside 1/10 of the increase of the land, they were to give this tithe to the Levites, strangers, orphans, and widows. These tithes were in reality more like taxes for the people of Israel and were mandatory, not optional giving. This tithe was distributed locally "within thy gates" (Deuteronomy 14:28) to support the Levites and assist the poor.

[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare#History: In the Roman Empire, the first emperor Augustus provided the 'congiaria' or corn dole for citizens who could not afford to buy food. Social welfare was enlarged by the Emperor Trajan.Trajan's program brought acclaim from many, including Pliny the Younger. The Song dynasty government (c.1000AD in China) supported multiple programs which could be classified as social welfare, including the establishment of retirement homes, public clinics, and paupers' graveyards. According to Robert Henry Nelson, "The medieval Roman Catholic Church operated a far-reaching and comprehensive welfare system for the poor..."

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#85
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, most low earners are receiving more back in benefits of various types than anything they pay into the system. Thus if you replace these systems with mandatory investments, you are reducing their available cash.

I think you're either misunderstanding me or how social security works. I'm only talking about replacing social security, not "these systems". Everyone who gets a paycheck pays their 6% in social security, regardless of income level.

But the curve that determines your payout is dramatically tilted towards low earners: That is, SS pays a much larger fraction of your highest earning years income if that income was low. As a result, low earners have to live only a few years past 65 to receive benefits greater than what they put in. High earners have to live decades.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#86
Those who have for centuries fooled the rest of humanity into believing that their unearned, illegitimate, and unwarranted elevated status is justified know the findings of this painfully obvious fact to be true. Which is why they pull out all and every stop to prevent the majority from realizing it by vilifying anyone and anything that could spread that realization.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pg once pointed out there may be far fewer startups in a society that does not allow concentration of excessive wealth. That's at least one single valid reason. http://paulgraham.com/inequality.html "People start startups in the hope of becoming much richer than they were before. And if your society tries to prevent anyone from being much richer than anyone else, it will also prevent one person from being much richer…

Is that really why people start startups? I'd hypothesize that most interesting startups were started for more fundamental reasons than just to get much wealthier than other people. Many startup founders are passionate enough about what they're doing that they'd do it even their returns were less than what they would otherwise make (e.g. compared to a Google or Facebook salary). In any case, startups are more constra…

If I had a minimum basic income I would never have to work for anyone else ever again! :)

I would absolutely start that Lhasa Apso matrimonial site I've always dreamed of.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#88
post #73
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if you're American, then it would be doubly great because we haven't seen any political revolutions in America since its founding (though if you're American you probably won't, because Americans like complaining about their government and alienating themselves from it, but they tend to do very little to improve it; at the end of the day, they're just too docile). Some notable events in American history: https:/…

I didn't say "no notable events". I said no political revolutions (although the civil war almost counts).

If the US Civil War doesn't qualify as a political revolution, then I would argue nothing possibly could.

It started as a political argument in fact. It was about how to govern, and what rights the states possessed as part of the United States. Every aspect of the Civil War and its outcomes were political in nature.

It was absolutely a political revolution first and foremost. The war settled the political dispute.

Re: Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingly well

#89

Here is a wild concept, mandate that people take care of people. Use the government only to enforce this. The government is full of corruption and waste, they are innefective in matters that require an actual soul (such as people who have made mistakes, people who have no reason to care, impoverished people, prisoners ETC.)... What if you could take the percentage of taxes that you spend every year and choose whom to…

Mandatory charity is by definition not charity. It's a form of forced labor.

Charity: n. the voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need.

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