Live data from Hacker News

Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

newyorker.com

31–40 of 49 posts

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#31
What is the point of advertisement?

Capitalism is an interesting trick. It is an artificial game, which exploits people's selfishness to benefit the world.

But selfishness doesn't usually work like that, so humans naturally try to find loopholes which would make them rich.

Instead of spending money on improving their services & products, corporations find it more profitable to spend huge amounts of resources on patent trolling, tax evasion and advertisement.

Sadly, ads will not go away any time soon, because they are much more difficult to get rid of then other loopholes I mentioned above.

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#32
I use adblock, but I try to disable it on sites that

A) have solid content that keeps me coming back.

B) Do not have ads that open new windows or popups when I do disable adblock.

I actually appreciate ads when they particularly useful and focused. 99% of the time this happens when an ad network is not used and the ads are provided by the content provider intentionally (jobs in my area on StackOverflow) or banner ads on small blogs where the vendor has most likely personally contacted the writer because the market is dead on. Ad networks have a close to 0% success rate on showing me things I actually want, so I tend to disable those unless I am just trying to support the content creator with a few cents of impression money.

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#33

I use ad-block, and this was only a recent development for me. At first, I didn't really mind ads since I mostly ignored them. I'm pretty sure there is a study somewhere about the long-term impact of web-based ads compared to billboards and TV ads, and I'm pretty sure that study would say that the long-term impact of web-ads would be much lower than TV ads, and basically forgotten in 5 minutes, and if not so soon, pr…

I am happy to look at ads - if they are maintained and a hosted on the site serving them.

Far more than the intrusion into my awareness (and that's what I initially started resenting) I resent the cross-site tracking that is implicit with any hosted ad or third party ad provider.

If someone wants my attention, all they have to do is ask for it - themselves. Because while I'm willing to pay for my consumption with my attention to what is being sold, I am not willing to pay for it by sharing my browsing and viewing habits with third parties.

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#34
post #19

I use ad-block. Ads are polluting my brain. I'm thinking of something while traveling on the bus and suddenly I catch myself reading some silly slogan on a board. Now it's stored somewhere and I might think about it later again. I never wanted to read that thing and feel like it has been forced upon me. How many hours of collective thinking power have been lost to ads processing ? Ads publishers treat us like a free…

You bring up good points.

But the reason I've always had an issue with ads is much different: the only people who can afford ads in the right places are the ones who are already big. In other words, it is extremely unfair. The people who could really use an ad on a TV don't have money to afford it. It's a perverse kind of system that somehow we just accepted without every questioning it.

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#35

What is the point of advertisement? Capitalism is an interesting trick. It is an artificial game, which exploits people's selfishness to benefit the world. But selfishness doesn't usually work like that, so humans naturally try to find loopholes which would make them rich. Instead of spending money on improving their services & products, corporations find it more profitable to spend huge amounts of resources on paten…

What if you've built an amazing, revolutionary product but no one knows about it? You make it seem like the concept of advertising at it's core is inherently bad; it isn't.

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#36
post #26

Someone should make an app that aggregates a list of companies that pay for advertisements which are especially disruptive or annoying, so I can be extra sure that I'm not supporting their behavior.

You could just surf the web and note the ones you see, but, oh.

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#37
The author reflects how much we've all bought into the utter bullshit that advertising makes things free. There is no free lunch, and there is no free web. In truth ads actually make things much more expensive, as I'll explain below. In addition most ads are fundamentally manipulative if not dishonest, and thereby undermine democracy and rational free markets.

Advertising simply shifts the cost of the "fee lunch" to the price of the advertised products. In other words we still end up paying. It may even shift costs regressively, toward lower incomes and the less educated, in which case the poor are subsidizing the better off.

BUT IT'S WORSE...

We end up paying a lot more than if we just paid for our content and services straight up. Not only are you still paying for the costs of the "free website", you are paying for all that advertising overhead, the costs of advertising technology and infrastructure (huge, btw), the agency and creative costs (Don Draper and company have to pay for the hookers and scotch somehow, not to mention what’s-his-name who basically just lounges in his office barefoot thinking Japanese), and big marketing departments that often outnumber the people who actually write or make things.

You are also paying the opportunity cost of inferior product, because that’s what happens when websites have to design to please advertisers over pleasing us, the users. Dalton Caldwell makes this point comparing Sourceforge to Github: http://daltoncaldwell.com/an-audacious-proposal.

Our identities and privacy are bought and sold to the highest bidders. So we foot the bill for those bids AND we pay the cost of lost privacy. A double whammy! It's personalization? Bullshit. Personalization means optimizing something for me, not optimizing for the advertiser. Again, who's the real customer?

IT GETS EVEN WORSE...

Think of the social costs of advertising. The web is infested with misinformation and manipulation. Beside the lying ads themselves, relying on a revenue stream entirely dependent on how many ads are seen severely affects the moral choices of those who decide what gets produced and how its presented. What are the costs of a misinformed and variously manipulated citizenry, of distortions to the free-market?

Knowledge and discourse are the lifeblood of both democracy, free markets, progress. The web, from the little scammy websites to the big brand ones that so many blindly trust, has a huge influence on who we vote for, what we buy, and most importantly, what we believe.

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#38
I may just be paranoid, but I'm convinced that when wearable passive cameras (glass) are culturally acceptable the first thing Google et al will be pushing for is an option to "pop in", and analyze your environment.

Imagine you could see through the eyes of your customer interacting with your brand or a competitor's. Imagine being able to see how your customers shop, what they're eating today, and more importantly a view of their network from their eyes.

It doesn't have to be that creepy, merely an agreement to let Google collect information while you shop based on GPS data seems innocent enough.

Advertising will get more insidious, someone convince me I'm wrong please (I'm being sincere, I don't want to hate technology).

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#39

The author reflects how much we've all bought into the utter bullshit that advertising makes things free. There is no free lunch, and there is no free web. In truth ads actually make things much more expensive, as I'll explain below. In addition most ads are fundamentally manipulative if not dishonest, and thereby undermine democracy and rational free markets. Advertising simply shifts the cost of the "fee lunch" to…

You are correct in saying there's no free lunch. However, I disagree with a couple things.

1) We, as consumers, do not pay for the ad tech infrastructure - the publishers do. Their purpose is to make the inventory more valuable and allow publishers to get more money than they normally would. Better targeted ads mean less ads.

2) The Dalton Caldwell argument doesn't hold up. Do television programs design for advertisers? Yes, but they also need to design for consumers. A television show that has commercials all the time will get less views and so will an ad infested website with a terrible experience. That fear of alienation is why Facebook isn't a giant display ad.

3) Websites aren't necessarily backed by the purchase of products through ads. There are such things as "brand recognition" ads that do not rely on instant action. After all, most television ads are not informomercials or "buy now" ads. I think we'll see more brand recognition ads online in the next couple years and online ads will become more mainstream. You'll see less scummy ads as the internet continues to grow more influential and the social cost will diminish.

Re: Is Ad Avoidance a Problem?

#40
post #39

The author reflects how much we've all bought into the utter bullshit that advertising makes things free. There is no free lunch, and there is no free web. In truth ads actually make things much more expensive, as I'll explain below. In addition most ads are fundamentally manipulative if not dishonest, and thereby undermine democracy and rational free markets. Advertising simply shifts the cost of the "fee lunch" to…

You are correct in saying there's no free lunch. However, I disagree with a couple things. 1) We, as consumers, do not pay for the ad tech infrastructure - the publishers do. Their purpose is to make the inventory more valuable and allow publishers to get more money than they normally would. Better targeted ads mean less ads. 2) The Dalton Caldwell argument doesn't hold up. Do television programs design for advertise…

1) Where do you think publisher's get the money to pay for the infrastructure? Where do you think advertisers who pay publishers get that money?

2) Sure, they can't totally treat consumers as tools. But the product is less than what it would be if it were purely designed for users. Have you heard the argument that advertisers are Google's true customers, that we are the product? Google's once famous clean and neutral search results are now cluttered and biased (see [1]). From a Wired article [2]: "Lloyd made his pitch, proposing a quantum version of Google’s search engine whereby users could make queries and receive results without Google knowing which questions were asked. The men were intrigued. But after conferring with their business manager the next day, Brin and Page informed Lloyd that his scheme went against their business plan. “They want to know everything about everybody who uses their products and services,” he joked."

3) See #1 above. Why do brands spend money on brand recognition, and where does that money come from?

You say you agree that there is no free lunch but your disagreements contradict that claim.

---

[1] http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/10/new-banner-ads-push-... [2] http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/10/computers-big-data...

Post reply on HN