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The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

nytimes.com

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Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#121

Post by nerfhammer »

joshcanhelp wrote: post #46
jtreminio wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea what chemicals are actually in that stuff.

If you buy from legitimate sources, you do. There are quality liquid producers that only use FDA-regulated flavors and sweeteners, organically-source vegetable glycerin, nicotine, and water. You can buy cheap from producers overseas, and I'm sure many do, but you can be as picky with your liquid as you can with what you eat.

lacking regulation you have no idea if such claims in their marketing material are even true

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#122

Post by Zak »

Lambdanaut wrote: post #85
hristov wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. E-cigarettes are not harmless and I wish people would stop perpetuating that lie. It is not clear exactly how harmful they are, but they are not harmless. 2. Ecig marketers are trying to push this story line of e-cigs vs the tobacco industry. It is mostly bs as the major ecig company blu is owned by a major tobacco company and every other major tobacco company has an ecig line now. The ecig industry is the tobacco…

I agree that they're not harmless. They're addictive, and being forced into reliance on a substance is never good. Though, this is the only detriment we know of.

being forced into reliance on a substance is never good

I find this wording problematic. I'm skeptical that any significant number of people in the developed world today start using nicotine without knowing that it's addictive or that a significant fraction of nicotine addicts developed that addiction through involuntary exposure.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#123

Post by konstruktor »

pandaman wrote: post #83
hristov wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. E-cigarettes are not harmless and I wish people would stop perpetuating that lie. It is not clear exactly how harmful they are, but they are not harmless. 2. Ecig marketers are trying to push this story line of e-cigs vs the tobacco industry. It is mostly bs as the major ecig company blu is owned by a major tobacco company and every other major tobacco company has an ecig line now. The ecig industry is the tobacco…

I'd like to see any citation for #1. For #2 you need to prove that if there exists s in S and s has property X then every element t in S also has property X.

The burden of proof, in this case, should be on the e-cigarette industry. They are selling an addictive recreational product, consisting of a new combination of substances, with a novel delivery method (that involves deep inhalation). It would be naive to let them play the game the cigarette industry has played for decades, that is trying to dodge the burden of proof for safety and spreading uncertainty.

And let's not forget that, for a novel product, the baseline for safety is not using the product, not using something that is known to be extremely toxic.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#124

Post by schrodinger »

unlucky wrote: post #81
pvnick wrote: post #32

E-Cigarettes are going to save millions of lives in the coming years. They're harmless, and, if you get a brand that feels like the real thing, easy to transition to. I hope the tobacco industry takes a huge financial hit from the sale of these things because they literally prevent people from dying. That being said, when I switched to e-cigarettes, it was very easy to switch back to regular cigarettes. That "narrow…

"I hope the tobacco industry takes a huge financial hit from the sale of these things because they literally prevent people from dying." From what I can tell, the tobacco industry is going to eventually own the e-cig market too. http://money.msn.com/investing/big-tobacco-invests-in-e-ciga... http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57588583/

That seems to be a sign that they _are_ taking a significant financial hit, or at least are afraid that they will soon. I'd rather see people using e-cigs sold by big tobacco companies than real cigarettes though.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#125

Post by Oxxide »

hristov wrote: post #77
pvnick wrote: post #32

E-Cigarettes are going to save millions of lives in the coming years. They're harmless, and, if you get a brand that feels like the real thing, easy to transition to. I hope the tobacco industry takes a huge financial hit from the sale of these things because they literally prevent people from dying. That being said, when I switched to e-cigarettes, it was very easy to switch back to regular cigarettes. That "narrow…

1. E-cigarettes are not harmless and I wish people would stop perpetuating that lie. It is not clear exactly how harmful they are, but they are not harmless. 2. Ecig marketers are trying to push this story line of e-cigs vs the tobacco industry. It is mostly bs as the major ecig company blu is owned by a major tobacco company and every other major tobacco company has an ecig line now. The ecig industry is the tobacco…

It's pretty clear you only have a surface understanding of the e-cig industry, the big tobacco owned e-cig lines are crappy disposables. You might start with one, but pretty soon you move on to a proper personal vaporizer with a decent battery life.

It's not clear how exactly harmful they aren't, either. The truth is, no one knows. They certainly haven't done any harm to me thus far, and we aren't yet hearing reports of vapers dropping dead, so I think it's safe to assume they're relatively harmless. (at least in the short term.)

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#126

Post by Oxxide »

praxeologist wrote: post #67
blankenship wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are they harmless? If they’re made with chemicals in an unregulated industrial process, it seems unlikely. Less harmful than ”analog” cigarettes, maybe—but completely harmless seems like an unlikely stretch.

Ecig advocates take a harm reduction approach, rather than the quit or die approach of anti-nicotine zealots. All evidence suggests that ecigs are vastly safer than burning tobacco. Here is a recent survey of all available research. We could further extend this by looking at known cancer/cardiovascular risks of the small bits of concern with ecigs then compare to burning tobacco and you are talking about 1% danger co…

thank you for this level-headed response. some of the vitriol around here is toxic.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#127

Post by Semaphor »

mistercow wrote: post #89
hristov wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. E-cigarettes are not harmless and I wish people would stop perpetuating that lie. It is not clear exactly how harmful they are, but they are not harmless. 2. Ecig marketers are trying to push this story line of e-cigs vs the tobacco industry. It is mostly bs as the major ecig company blu is owned by a major tobacco company and every other major tobacco company has an ecig line now. The ecig industry is the tobacco…

>The ecig industry is the tobacco industry. A large part of the ecig industry is small businesses making liquid and selling it out of little shops and small websites. We have two of these shops in my little Podunk town now. It's kind of amazing to see, and I wonder how long it will manage to last. I doubt that the future of ecigs is going to be these shitty disposable toys and prepackaged cartridges. Everyone I've kn…

Plus the mod makers selling rebuildable atomizers and battery casings.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#128

Post by Semaphor »

pvnick wrote: post #32

E-Cigarettes are going to save millions of lives in the coming years. They're harmless, and, if you get a brand that feels like the real thing, easy to transition to. I hope the tobacco industry takes a huge financial hit from the sale of these things because they literally prevent people from dying. That being said, when I switched to e-cigarettes, it was very easy to switch back to regular cigarettes. That "narrow…

> That being said, when I switched to e-cigarettes, it was very easy to switch back to regular cigarettes.

Not easy at all for me. Cigarettes taste so disgusting, I could never go back to them.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#129

Post by konstruktor »

praxeologist wrote: post #67
blankenship wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are they harmless? If they’re made with chemicals in an unregulated industrial process, it seems unlikely. Less harmful than ”analog” cigarettes, maybe—but completely harmless seems like an unlikely stretch.

Ecig advocates take a harm reduction approach, rather than the quit or die approach of anti-nicotine zealots. All evidence suggests that ecigs are vastly safer than burning tobacco. Here is a recent survey of all available research. We could further extend this by looking at known cancer/cardiovascular risks of the small bits of concern with ecigs then compare to burning tobacco and you are talking about 1% danger co…

I as a non-smoker can buy an e-cigarette, so one should judge the safety of the product on its own, not compared to something that is clearly harmful.

Methadone, for example, is used for harm reduction. It's only available as an prescription alternative to a harmful addiction. And still, substitution therapy is treated like any other form of medicine, i.e. the industry has to prove the merits of their product before it can go on sale.

Nicotine patches, which are available OTC to the general public, at least had to be proven as safe in clinical trials.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#130

Post by Zigurd »

chimeracoder wrote: post #100
Alex3917 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> E-cigarettes are not harmless and I wish people would stop perpetuating that lie. They might be fairly harmless, we don't know. The three biggest risks of smoking are cancer, emphysema, and heart disease. For a casual smoker, heart disease is by far the biggest risk. This is caused by the carbon monoxide, and eCigs have zero of this. There's also no reason to think that they cause emphysema. In terms of cancer, the…

> They might be fairly harmless, we don't know. They might be less harmless (though we don't know that yet), but we can be fairly certain that they are least somewhat harmful. This is not like vaporizing cannabis - the desirable compounds in cannabis are not carcinogenic[0] and actually have cancer-fighting properties, and the main drawbacks to smoking cannabis come from the act of smoking, not from the substance. Ni…

The LD50 of nicotine is low enough that it would be conceivable to die from the toxic effects, and that's not possible with cannabis, but that's already a risk with nicotine patches, and it's not that large a risk.

Nicotine certainly has some distinctive psychoactive effects. I suppose it's a matter of opinion whether you find them beneficial if you are otherwise healthy.

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