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NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

theguardian.com

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Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#211

Post by comrade_ogilvy »

pradocchia wrote: post #161
cmdkeen wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FBI did this for decades - Hoover's level of corruption is truly scary. He had dirt on every incoming US President and most representatives for years, and would offer to help his chosen candidate during the election cycle. But it ended with his death and there was a backlash from power. That's what doesn't make me worry about the NSA actually spying on US political figures. As for them spying on foreigners - so w…

But it ended with his death and there was a backlash from power. That's what doesn't make me worry about the NSA actually spying on US political figures. On the contrary, FBI Deputy Director W. Mark Felt brought down Nixon through the Washington Post, in his role as Deep Throat of Watergate fame. This all happened after Hoover died in 72.

There will always be career men/women who have seen a lot of laundry, who might be bitter when passed up for promotion in favor of a political crony, and find that helping along justice makes for sweet revenge.

That is why extremely malicious conspiracies involving more than a dozen or so people are not believable. As the circle of those in the know increases, the likelihood that someone will think they did not get dealt fairly goes up rapidly, and those with gripes will find they are holding the moral equivalent of nuclear weapons against those who wronged them.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#212

Post by krylonkid »

moocowduckquack wrote: post #206
krylonkid wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. Hopefully the US will eventually pull back and take better care of ourselves regardless of the consequences for Europe.

It would probably get a bit safer.

Weakness provokes aggressors.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#213

Post by [deleted] »

timje1 wrote: post #143
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't need to spy on the German chancellor to be certain of this. There is no conceivable plot that Germany could be involved in that could damage the US, and both countries know this. Same with the UK, Israel, France, etc.

The EU doesn't import US beef because of banned chemicals used to raise US cows. Imagine if the EU implemented more stringent requirements on, say, GM foods. Or other livestock. Banned the pesticides used in California Oranges, etc. Trade agreements, tariffs, standards and sanctions - there are many ways for European countries to damage the US economically.

[deleted]

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#214

Post by guscost »

prof_hobart wrote: post #145
guscost wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote, er, myself: "What does the NSA even do if not this?" http://guscost.com/2013/06/27/nsa-snoops/

Spy on people they believe are enemies, rather than allies or innocent bystanders?

Well now you've identified one of the great unsolved problems in asymmetric warfare. How do you know that someone is an enemy without spying on them first?

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#215

Post by prof_hobart »

guscost wrote: post #214
prof_hobart wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spy on people they believe are enemies, rather than allies or innocent bystanders?

Well now you've identified one of the great unsolved problems in asymmetric warfare. How do you know that someone is an enemy without spying on them first?

The most obvious approach would be to wait until someone's given you at least the tiniest hint that they could possibly be planning on attacking you before treating them as a potential enemy.

What kind of legitimate threat would the US government even be watching out for with the German Chancellor? Are they so paranoid that they think the Fourth Reich is just over the horizon, or did Merkel's statement that "Islam is part of us" tip them off that she might be running a terrorist sleeper cell?

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#216

Post by DanBC »

prof_hobart wrote: post #215
guscost wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well now you've identified one of the great unsolved problems in asymmetric warfare. How do you know that someone is an enemy without spying on them first?

The most obvious approach would be to wait until someone's given you at least the tiniest hint that they could possibly be planning on attacking you before treating them as a potential enemy. What kind of legitimate threat would the US government even be watching out for with the German Chancellor? Are they so paranoid that they think the Fourth Reich is just over the horizon, or did Merkel's statement that "Islam is…

> What kind of legitimate threat would the US government even be watching out for with the German Chancellor?

Cancelling some important weapons contracts? ECHELON was used for industrial espionage.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#217

Post by invalidOrTaken »

moocowduckquack wrote: post #179
adventured wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Virtual behavior modification and prediction. Inducing an entire culture to gradually change how it behaves, and its beliefs, through a mixture of opportunism on real events, simulated events, and trial balloons. Some of that isn't new, but the ability to use vast computing resources to map behavior prediction of 300 million people to an accurate degree, is. They no longer need your friends, family and neighbors to r…

I wonder who is playing the role of Hari Seldon.

http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2008/07/olxii-w...

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#218

Post by jmilloy »

grey-area wrote: post #204
jmilloy wrote: post #171

I feel we are taking our eyes off the ball. Domestic spying violates constitutional rights. More to the point, I don't want to support an institution with programs that violate my privacy, no matter what benefits such programs provide. But isn't international spying is different? Honestly, I don't mind supporting an institution with an external espionage programs. Isn't in my best interest? Does it harm me? What are…

Possible concrete repercussions include: Refusal of the EU bloc to cooperate over sharing banking and passenger data, and potentially other treaties down the line Refusal of large South American nations to do trade deals or negotiate with the US, and a decline in US influence in the region A move away from American dominance of the internet, and a reluctance to use companies with servers based in based in the US The…

Okay. Thanks.

>Refusal of the EU bloc to cooperate...

Sharing of banking and passenger data is not something I know a lot about. Why do countries share this data now, and why would they stop because their prime minister is being spied upon? How the spying affect the pros and cons of sharing the data?

> Refusal of large South American nations to do trade deals...

Can you explain why a South American nation would not make a trade deal that made sense economically because of foreign espionage? How do the economics change as a result of the espionage?

> A move away from American dominance of the internet...

Who would avoid using servers based in the US as a result of espionage of 35 specific foreign officials? We're not talking about normal EU citizens in this particular article.

>The decline of the American empire...

Again, what decisions will countries make differently? Are countries going to make decisions that are not in their best interests in order to spite the US? Or are they already making decisions that are not in their best interests in order to be nice to the US, but won't anymore? Neither of these seems likely.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#219

Post by mpyne »

grey-area wrote: post #104
aclevernickname wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your comment is calibrating, because it shows that there is a limit to how much privacy invasion the average american will stand for. Thank you for being so forthcoming.

diminoten from sibling comment, you are hellbanned, not sure why, I suggest emailing to admins.

Thanks for mentioning it too, as it's an insightful comment IMO.
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