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NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

theguardian.com

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Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#51

Post by mpyne »

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

You know, I've been a big defender of the role for signals intelligence, including NSA's hand in such.

But there is a lot to be said for discretion, especially when you're talking about the top echelon of our NATO allies! Even my defenses of NSA have been predicated on the actual need for intelligence collection. This has the corollary that collection without any use should not be sanctioned.

So absent some evidence of our allies conspiring against us in things like WTO negotiations, I don't see a justification for such phone tapping. Even though it's probably legal, was it really the best use of NSA resources? What actionable intel could they have hoped to gain? We're not talking about Medvedev or Putin's phones after all.

Certainly we have known that the NSA has the capability to tap into many international communications circuits, but we've also "known" that such taps are predicated on the national security interests of the United States. So now the question: Was pushing far beyond the envelope worth it? Was causing a boatload of whistleblowers (not just Snowden) to form still beneficial to the U.S. in the end?

I would judge that it was not, at this point. What I'm interested in knowing is when these taps of allied leadership's telephones actually stopped? Specifically, was it only after Snowden's leaks? Did Obama put a stop to it? Sometime in between? All we know at this point is that the U.S. isn't doing it now, and pinky swears not to do so in the future.

As far as the Germans doing it to us... maybe. But the NSA is also responsible for ensuring that they can't break our comms even if we do assume they're trying. But maybe I'm naive but I honestly think they are probably focused more on Russia, Islamists and other threats to Germany, than on what Obama is saying to Boehner.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#52

Post by mpyne »

krapp wrote: post #43
jsmcgd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great way to expedite that transition is to disrespect them, treating them like your enemy when they're still your ally.

Well yes, which is why you try not to get caught.

That's true, but the easiest way not to get caught is to not do it at all.

Presumably spying on friends may be needed someday, but it brings the kind of diplomatic flamefest that should keep such spying restricted to Very Important Things and not just "we'll tap them because their numbers fell in our lap".

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#53

Post by korethr »

javajosh wrote: post #27
sinak wrote: post #10

A note to say that the Stop Watching Us coalition rally is now just two days away. If you're on the east coast, it's not too late to attend. If you're interested, you can find out more here: https://rally.stopwatching.us/ Privacy is one of the hardest things to get folks riled up about. It erodes slowly, and for "good" reasons, like defending the country against terrorism. But privacy is critical to a meaningful demo…

Thanks for posting this - it's the most important political topic of this generation. If I was anywhere close I'd attend. I started chatting with a guy at a local bar over lunch the other day. The topic turned to surveillance and Snowden. Turned out my conversational partner was an off-duty cop. He thought Snowden was a traitor, and that the surveillance was totally justified because, "It makes protecting the innocen…

His answer doesn't surprise me terribly. It likely would be easier to stop criminals and protect innocent people from them if there were no 4th. To me, the more important question is "Do the potential benefits of repealing the 4th justify doing so in spite of the abuse that would result?"

When the answer to that question is "Yes", then we are truly in danger.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#54

Post by singold »

fein wrote: post #3

Jay Carney issued a statement that said the US "is not monitoring and will not monitor" the German chancellor's communications. This is probably the best tell the US government has for sniffing out the bullshit. If they don't explicitly deny the event occurring in the past, it happened. Reminds me of a Spaceballs scene: Colonel Sandurz: Now. You're looking at now, sir. Everything that happens now, is happening now. D…

When I heard the "is not monitoring and will not monitor" I thougth "We didn't, and we will not do it again"

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#55

Post by Theodores »

We have ended up with the same conversations on this spying lark far too often.

I appreciate the sentiment of those that want to protest against this and I can understand the spoon-fed arguments about how the NSA must go after the kiddie fiddlers, terrorists that want to blow up innocent kiddies (as in the ones that haven't been fiddled with, yet) and do all that mysterious national security stuff.

However, instead of same-old, same-old, can we work on a technological solution? Something that will work for you and I as well as Mrs Merkel?

We can let go the network analysis stuff, who is in contact with whom as right now there is no easy way to prevent the NSA slurping that stuff up. But, as for the content, can't that be encrypted properly, without the NSA having the key and without there being secret courts where keys get handed over in secret? It is just code we need, and with it we can get a reasonable compromise where our conversations are secure.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#56

Post by aspensmonster »

pvnick wrote: post #44

Watch as the flag-all-NSA-stories brigade pushes this relevant story off the front page...

I'm pleasantly surprised that it's not already on the bottom of the second page, headed towards the third. Between the flagging brigades and "flamewar detectors," I'm sure it will get there sooner than later.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#57

Post by aclevernickname »

mpyne wrote: post #51
ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

You know, I've been a big defender of the role for signals intelligence, including NSA's hand in such. But there is a lot to be said for discretion, especially when you're talking about the top echelon of our NATO allies! Even my defenses of NSA have been predicated on the actual need for intelligence collection. This has the corollary that collection without any use should not be sanctioned. So absent some evidence…

your comment is calibrating, because it shows that there is a limit to how much privacy invasion the average american will stand for. Thank you for being so forthcoming.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#58

Post by spdy »

npalli wrote: post #14

What is the strategy here? Of releasing information about NSA activities with foreign nations? Seems like it is mixing a potentially illegal activity (domestic spying) with their designated job. Doesn't every country try to do this. The NSA personnel could very well have undergone considerable risk to get this sort of thing going on. On the other hand, Joe public sees Snowden fleeing and chilling out in Russia/China…

You are wrong its a 1:0 for Snowden. Now it`s not only the "common" people and how Merkel reacted is atypical for her.

Lets hope we see some actions out of this event at least the EU parliament set the first sign with voting against SWIFT.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#59

Post by meepmorp »

npalli wrote: post #14

What is the strategy here? Of releasing information about NSA activities with foreign nations? Seems like it is mixing a potentially illegal activity (domestic spying) with their designated job. Doesn't every country try to do this. The NSA personnel could very well have undergone considerable risk to get this sort of thing going on. On the other hand, Joe public sees Snowden fleeing and chilling out in Russia/China…

Yeah, I don't get this. Snowden made a point of distancing himself from indiscriminate leakers like Chelsea Manning. But this kind of stuff isn't legally dubious invasions of American citizens' privacy - it's foreign heads of state. Leaking this kind of information only seems to damage the US internationally.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#60

Post by meepmorp »

frostmatthew wrote: post #30
ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

Intelligence from allies should come from cooperation, not espionage.

Why is relying exclusively on information that's been filtered through a foreign government, possibly with its own agenda, a sensible way to gather intelligence?
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