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The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

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Re: The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

#281

Post by mwcampbell »

asveikau wrote: post #186
B-Con wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't duck, it's the truth. We built really powerful computers and decided the best way to use them was to run web apps consisting of a poor performance scripting language with a poor performance visual-rendering language and half the people who build with it seem to think that anything done in a web browser is free. "Modern" CSS for even a simple site is pretty silly. So many horribly inefficient rules, sometimes do…

It's not like it's constrained to the web either. I had a bit of an epiphany about the state of desktop Windows a few years ago when for a hobby project I wrote a UI using only Win32 and C and no external dependencies. Maybe it took longer to write than it should have but I was really shocked at how the thing ran so much faster and smoother than just about any UI I was using on that machine. It dawned on me that all…

This is believable, but I'd like to dig a little deeper. Do you remember which Windows apps you were comparing yours against? And on what version of Windows?

Re: The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

#282

Post by ye »

sejje wrote: post #154
ye wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just not playing the latest games or doing any intensive computations, or just don't care that you could finish your task 3 times faster than on your 2008 CPU. What's your framerate in Battlefield 3 on a 64 player map at 1920x1080, high settings? Or Crysis 3?

You just picked the most expensive calculation you could, more or less, and asked how a general-purpose PC handles it. A brand new general-purpose PC handles that situation equally well--unplayable.

No, the most expensive would be a 3-monitor setup at 2560x1440 on ultra settings.

Re: The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

#283

Post by ye »

TylerE wrote: post #174
ye wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just not playing the latest games or doing any intensive computations, or just don't care that you could finish your task 3 times faster than on your 2008 CPU. What's your framerate in Battlefield 3 on a 64 player map at 1920x1080, high settings? Or Crysis 3?

That's the thing...most games are still not multi-threaded well, and single threaded performance hasn't gone up more than maybe 20-30%, they just tacked on more cores.

That's actually not true. Modern high end CPUs are multiple times faster than the CPUs from 2008. The architecture changed too, not just the frequency.

Re: The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

#285

Post by gbog »

GuiA wrote: post #190
johngalt wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We would be better off steering into the skid. History has plenty of examples of people who've tried to hang onto the old ways 'because that's how I learned it'. The way forward isn't to try and keep cheap PCs viable for creativity's sake, but to ensure that creative desires are being met on the newer devices. Would I have learned memory management and dual booting if I'd had a tablet instead of a 386? Probably not.…

As a kid, my parents were really anti-videogames (except for a few educational ones), anti-TV (we had one, but it was in its own room and rarely used), and would only let me use the home computer for homework. As a result, I spent all of my childhood and teenage years reading (mostly fantasy and sci-fi; several books a week, at my peak) and programming. I taught myself programming in 7th grade because I really wanted…

If you want to read more, trash the ipads and push Michelet Histoire de France (19 vols) from project Gutenberg to your kindle.

Same here by the way, no tv, my laptops are my wife second hand ones, never owned an Apple device.

Re: The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

#286

Post by krallja »

protomyth wrote: post #192
marcosdumay wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I truly wish someone was set to keep building something for the hobbyist I really don't understand your concern. Hobbists have a wider selection of computing tools than ever before (altough, that statement was true at any time since the 50's). We have the entire arduino ecosystem for hardware hobbists, throwaway PCs like the Raspberry Pi for embebbing real computers everywhere, several different standards of deskto…

> Hobbists have a wider selection of computing tools than ever before I don't think that's quite true. We had Heath kits and a lot more variety of computers from the late 70's to the early 90's. There is no under $200 computer sold at major retailers like there was in the 80's.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%24200+1980+US+dollars+...

There are LOTS of under-$570 computers sold at major retailers today.

Re: The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

#287

Post by yuhong »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #220

Interesting to watch the uptick in 'retina' laptops. Basically people don't need a new PC but will pay for a better PC 'experience' that means longer battery life, 'better' screen (usually retina/IPS/etc), better ergonomics. Interestingly it seems like some would love to run their old OS on them. My Dad sort of crystallized it when he said "I'd like to get a new laptop with a nicer screen but I can't stand the interf…

AFAIK even with OEM versions, only Win8 Pro edition comes with downgrade rights.

Re: The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

#288

Post by marcosdumay »

protomyth wrote: post #192
marcosdumay wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I truly wish someone was set to keep building something for the hobbyist I really don't understand your concern. Hobbists have a wider selection of computing tools than ever before (altough, that statement was true at any time since the 50's). We have the entire arduino ecosystem for hardware hobbists, throwaway PCs like the Raspberry Pi for embebbing real computers everywhere, several different standards of deskto…

> Hobbists have a wider selection of computing tools than ever before I don't think that's quite true. We had Heath kits and a lot more variety of computers from the late 70's to the early 90's. There is no under $200 computer sold at major retailers like there was in the 80's.

Hobbism is not trendy* nowadays. There is nothing aimed at hobbists for sale at any big retailer. It's not a problem with computers.

* Well, there is a perfectly rational reason for that, and it is not really a problem for hobbists. But that's the fact.

Re: The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

#289

Post by wtracy »

x0054 wrote: post #153
justincormack wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would pay for a silent PC. I paid a lot for a quiet Apple PowerPC Mac pro back in the day and built a quiet PC but they are not silent and I have moved to a quieter place and I can hear them (yes the Mac runs Fedora now). I have some silent ARM machines but they don't quite cut it yet though maybe the new quad core one will.

I have seen full size ATX cases from Silverstone with passive cooling, where the entire case is machine out of aluminum and acts like an enormous heat sync. Have yet to find a good fanless power supply. The new Mac Pro supposed to be only 12DB. It's hard to beat that, most rooms have ambient noise of at least 18db.

There's some complete 'mini' systems that achieve this, presumably by pushing the the transformer out of the computer and into a wall-wart or similar: http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/store/Mini_ITX_Systems/533MHz_... http://www.amazon.com/Intel-D2500-Fanless-Mini-ITX-D2500CCE/...

Buying these as stand-alone components seems to be more of a challenge.

Re: The PC is not dead, we just don't need new ones

#290

Post by shirro »

zalzane wrote: post #216
simonsarris wrote: post #96

I've felt this way since I built my last desktop in 2008. I was sort-of waiting for the "gee its time to upgrade" mark to roll around in 3 or 4 years, but it hasn't happened yet. Any games I want to play it still runs very well, and it still feels very fast to me even compared to modern off-the-shelf systems. When my friends ask for laptop-buying advice I tell them if they like the keyboard and screen, then its just…

>because people do not need $2000 Facebook and email machines Devil's advocate: if that is true, then why are macbook pros such a hot sell? I'm typing this here in a college library's lobby. When I look around, I see roughly 3/4 of the laptop-using students are using a macbook pro, with a few macbook airs littered around. If I were to walk around and glance at what people were working on, it'd probably be something l…

The MBP is one of the most functional devices available. The wanky, hipster appeal is way overplayed. Plenty of people use them inspite of their image.

Phones satisfy the mobile convergence thing between organisers, phones, cameras and handheld games. Tablets satisfy the "computer as a bicycle" vision of Jobs and bring portable computing to the masses. But neither are really full featured enough for a developer or a college student.

When it comes to a full featured, keyboard equipped, programmable device there is bugger all that is light, powerful, has a long battery life and ships with a decent environment (posix, term, ssh) out of the box. Dell's XPS 13 DE delivers a bit of the picture but it doesn't have the quality bundled iWork apps that would appeal to a student and has worse battery life. They are getting there though.

The rest of the laptop market is hindered by shipping with Windows only and the difficulty of getting pre and post-sales driver support for the developers and students who require an environment like Linux. The industry has really fucked themselves trying to keep to the model of the glory days.

Hopefully Steam will help set things straight by creating a large mainstream market that more niche users like developers, students and scientists can benefit from.

Manufacturers are going to have to stop the race to the bottom and start building less models, higher quality and in bigger volume if they are to compete with Apple in price, quality and profitability. And they are going to have to explore well integrated Chrome OS and Linux packages and work on developing drivers with better performance and power efficiency.

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