Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 231 posts

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#41

Post by jsmcgd »

krapp wrote: post #38
conductor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we are not at war with everyone, and those countries involved (like Germany, France and Italy) are our partners, economical and military partners. I can accept doing SIGINT on non-friendly countries and organizations but is it correct to spy on your own people and partner countries?

>but is it correct to spy on your own people and partner countries? It's rude, but I think to a degree it is acceptable, and probably expected. Friendly countries spy on each other all the time. For one thing, friendly countries might not remain friendly forever.

A great way to expedite that transition is to disrespect them, treating them like your enemy when they're still your ally.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#42

Post by yk »

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

Given how very SHOCKED!1! German politicians react, one could get the impression that they honestly believed the NSA would only spy on the lower classes.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#43

Post by krapp »

jsmcgd wrote: post #41
krapp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but is it correct to spy on your own people and partner countries? It's rude, but I think to a degree it is acceptable, and probably expected. Friendly countries spy on each other all the time. For one thing, friendly countries might not remain friendly forever.

A great way to expedite that transition is to disrespect them, treating them like your enemy when they're still your ally.

Well yes, which is why you try not to get caught.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#45

Post by bobwaycott »

todayiamme wrote: post #11

I quite frankly don't understand why anyone would condemn such acts of espionage. They are not only essential for a nation state to function successfully, but they are also a far superior way for the US to maintain its hegemony as compared to using acts of brute force. Now I do not condone Orwellian spying on the citizens of your own republic, but this really is their job and it's quite impressive that they're this g…

In which you assume far too much:

- that espionage is required for a state to function successfully

- that maintaining US hegemony is both a national good and good for the world

- that brute force is the only other viable option to rampant surveillance

It is specifically because none of those things ought to be assumed, none of them are a given, and none are inherently good or desirable or required, that one ought to condemn these acts.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#46

Post by bobwaycott »

krapp wrote: post #5

Yes. And the US is the only country whose intelligence service has ever done anything like this. And newsflash ... we probably bug your embassies too.

I seem to have missed the part where it was suggested that only the US is guilty.

If there existed a solid body of evidence to disclose to the world that Germany, France, or Russia was carrying out such actions on a wide scale, that would dominate the press in under a minute.

This is the US receiving equal treatment given a preponderance of evidence.

This is how the press should be.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#48

Post by bobwaycott »

omonra wrote: post #20

I think we need a bit of context here. US is the hegemon. Therefore it's not reasonable to apply same expectations of how it acts as we do pleasant little countries like Norway or Netherlands (who are probably only independent because US defended them against Germans & Soviets).

And hegemony is a dangerous thing that must be watched closely.

It is entirely reasonable to apply expectations to all countries that they not operate in ways that encroach upon the sovereignty and privacy of other nations, especially their allies or even less friendly nations with whom a declared state of war does not exist.

The hegemon ought answer to a much stricter standard than the "pleasant little countries" who do not wield such power.

Hegemony does not implicitly grant universal assent to be a total asshole.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#49

Post by sasvari »

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

  This is the understood and expected function of the NSA
The task of the USG should be to level the actions of its intelligence agencies. If it's ok for the USG to fuck with their allies, then it's the way it is. But don't expect every of its allies to agree with that. There's a difference to spy on everything which moves in Iran/North Korea or France/Germany/you call it. This is making waves in Europe ... I am not sure if that is worth to piss off your close allies.

This might not be getting the big news in the US, but it certainly does in Europe. And if there is only a slight chance that this might affect the opinion people in Europe have about the US(G), everybody in the US should be worried.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#50

Post by bobwaycott »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #26

Presumably this will soon be followed up by other ground-breaking journalism pieces such as "Army kills people", "Surgeons perform surgery", and "Garbage collectors stun world by collecting garbage". Irrespective of what one thinks of it (and I do not think favourably of it), how is it surprising that an organisation that is established specifically to spy on people is in fact spying on people?

Perhaps because foreign leaders do not consider tapping the phone lines of our allies to be within the scope of NSA's stated mission "to gain a decision advantage for the Nation and our allies under all circumstances."[1]

Or maybe because SigInt is supposed to be working "for intelligence and counterintelligence purposes and to support military operations."[1] They might not get why tapping their phones supports America's military operations, or why the US wouldn't just schedule a meeting/call to for "intelligence and counterintelligence purposes".

Might be that some fail to see how this qualifies as "operations to defeat terrorists and their organizations at home and abroad, consistent with U.S. laws and the protection of privacy and civil liberties."

There are wide-open channels for gaining intelligence from the leaders of allied countries. We've been using them for a while. They work pretty well.

The NSA is causing the US to look like it's the distrustful mate who is sneakily combing through his partner's texts, emails, messages, and other media to assure himself he can trust his partner.

The world is, perhaps, not liking the feeling of being spied on.

[1]: http://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/

Post reply on HN