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Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

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Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#301

Post by dylandrop »

breischl wrote: post #248
dylandrop wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, because if we make feeding antibiotics to livestock illegal, it can only be enforced by lynch mobs. C'mon. Do you really think every food regulation is being watched by military police who will come and beat you up if you break said regulation?

It's no secret that if you defy the authorities they escalate the amount of coercion they use. You just need to follow the progression far enough to get to the violence. They start with a polite court summons, then send a police officer to your home, and if you don't come quietly they'll physically force you. If you manage to resist that, well now you're resisting arrest so it doesn't even matter what the original su…

Yes, so we're talking about someone who would be committed enough to resisting authority to provoke violence. This is different than saying "if you break a law, it will result in violence" or even the more extreme "instituting a law is a violent act", which is what the original comment in this tree suggested. I realize what you're saying, but I think at this point it's argument just for argument's sake.

Also, in this case, the individual dosing livestock with antibiotics is actually harming society, in which case I think it would be okay to physically detain him/her from doing so, rather than just saying "this is just too much effort, guess we better let him do whatever he wants". In most scenarios though, I don't think this would be necessary.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#302

Post by ChuckMcM »

thwest wrote: post #290
ChuckMcM wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, was going to say basically the same thing. At what point do we start designing RNA with a delivery mechanism that attaches itself to a specific bacterial type and eliminates it?

The day we're ready for that virus to mutate in the wild and target RNA it wasn't designed for?

I understand the emotion in your response, I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that it comes from being unable to calculate a risk on something we don't understand. However, the action proposed sets as a prerequisite that understanding.

Consider 'fly by wire' as an analogy. There was great emotion (and still is) around taking the pilot of an aircraft out of direct control of that aircraft. First required by dynamically unstable aircraft (the F-117) this is now a standard feature on large passenger aircraft. The problems are still the same though, one bad line of code (or perhaps a few bad lines) and the plane flies into the ground killing everyone.

Similarly with engineered RNA. We actually do this a lot these days (very interesting bio hacking going on) and with DNA printers you can pretty much design your own bug, print it out, load it into a waiting husk of an E. Coli bacterium and boom, new bug.) Understanding isn't quite there yet but it will be. And knowing the risks of a particular DNA pattern will be just as understandable as a knowing the risks of a piece of flight software.

[1] http://www.3ders.org/articles/20130324-synthesizing-dna-time...

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#303

Post by vacri »

waps wrote: post #270
tokenadult wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General reply to express thanks for and respond to the several replies my first comment here received. First of all, I wrote in the original reply, "his warnings should be taken seriously," so I am by no means disagreeing with the quoted CDC expert about his general policy recommendations. Indeed, I am on record here on HN[1] saying that I'd like to see the United States follow the lead of the EU immediately in banni…

So much wrong with this post: > There is a testable prediction here of course: either bacteria outrun human antibiotic development or they do not. I'm confident that more bacterial lineages will be wiped out before human medicine is seriously compromised by natural selection of bacteria that are resistant to most antibiotics used in human medicine. Do a dumb test. Walk into your nearest hospital, I don't even want to…

Also, most "life" functions of a human body, like breathing, metabolism, ... are actually performed by symbiotic bacteria on our behalf. Human cells can't actually do it themselves

Breathing? Where are the bacteria in the gas-exchange process? And 'metabolism' is a catch-all term that refers to so many different chemical reactions, plenty of which are conducted within the human cells themselves.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#304

Post by gcb0 »

stcredzero wrote: post #63
nostromo wrote: post #53

80% of the antibiotics we use are given to animals.[1] That seems like a good place to cut back. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/04/health/use-of-antibiotics-...

In Denmark, they prevent infections in chicken houses by thoroughly cleaning them, then using techniques developed for clean rooms to prevent infections. In the US, we let them wade in their own filth and pump them full of antibiotics. We should just make it flat out illegal to use antibiotics across entire herds of livestock. We should also fine doctors for prescribing antibiotics to patients with a viral infection…

But then the chicken breast price increase will be passed to the consumers! keep the government out of my money!

(just trying to keep the discourse here as balanced as it would be if this discussion was out of HN)

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#305

Post by osetinsky »

tokenadult wrote: post #70

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

we have intelligence, but to say that it gives us advantages that bacteria will never possess comes off to me as hubris.

consider what they have: vast numbers and the ability to evolve much more quickly than we can develop new antibiotics

scary stuff

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#306

Post by yongjik »

breischl wrote: post #248
dylandrop wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, because if we make feeding antibiotics to livestock illegal, it can only be enforced by lynch mobs. C'mon. Do you really think every food regulation is being watched by military police who will come and beat you up if you break said regulation?

It's no secret that if you defy the authorities they escalate the amount of coercion they use. You just need to follow the progression far enough to get to the violence. They start with a polite court summons, then send a police officer to your home, and if you don't come quietly they'll physically force you. If you manage to resist that, well now you're resisting arrest so it doesn't even matter what the original su…

If I go to an Apple store and decide I can pick up an iPad and get out, because I've been nice to everybody and I deserve it, similar things will happen, starting with "Excuse me sir," verbal arguments, guards, armed guards, and (if I decide to defend my right to my iPad with armed force) eventually a shoot-out match.

So, we could equally say that there is implied violence in every transaction. (Well, yes sometimes the violence is leased from the government, which will happen if I bring my armed thugs to raid an Apple store. And I'd consider that a good use of the government's resource.)

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#307

Post by caseydurfee »

Fomite wrote: post #294
uptownJimmy wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of this is nonsense. This, for instance: "If you get infected with a deadly viral disease, like rabies, it's curtains. There's nothing any hospital can do for you except sedate you until you're dead."

Umm...rabies pretty much is curtains. If we miss the postexposure prophylaxis window, the fatality rate for rabies is indistinguishable from 100%

That's not a new development, though. OP makes it sound like it is. Rabies has always been that way.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#308

Post by vacri »

Fomite wrote: post #295
ceol wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you're in that hospital, ask what their procedure is if you've been infected with rabies within the past week. It's most certainly not "curtains and sedation." Just that bit of factual nonsense leads me to believe you are speaking far out of your area of expertise.

Yeah, but after that window closes, our treatment options for rabies are essentially Hail Mary, "Well, it's not like it can get any worse..." level treatments. That's not a big deal in the U.S. because rabies is quite rare, but in the developing world it's still a thing.

Rabies is a virus - antibiotics don't have any effect on viruses.

Ceol may also be referring to the incubation time for rabies usually being more than a week - if you've just been infected with it and you present at day 7, then a prophylaxis will be administered.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#309

Post by mhb »

Fomite wrote: post #294
uptownJimmy wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of this is nonsense. This, for instance: "If you get infected with a deadly viral disease, like rabies, it's curtains. There's nothing any hospital can do for you except sedate you until you're dead."

Umm...rabies pretty much is curtains. If we miss the postexposure prophylaxis window, the fatality rate for rabies is indistinguishable from 100%

Yeah, but how did we lose that fight a decade ago? Whether or not we'd prefer something better, doesn't the treatment that worked then, still work now?

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#310

Post by Fomite »

vacri wrote: post #308
Fomite wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but after that window closes, our treatment options for rabies are essentially Hail Mary, "Well, it's not like it can get any worse..." level treatments. That's not a big deal in the U.S. because rabies is quite rare, but in the developing world it's still a thing.

Rabies is a virus - antibiotics don't have any effect on viruses. Ceol may also be referring to the incubation time for rabies usually being more than a week - if you've just been infected with it and you present at day 7, then a prophylaxis will be administered.

Of which I am well aware, and has absolutely zero to do with the content of my post. Someone disputed that a rabies infection is "curtains" - I posed the circumstances where it is.
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