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Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

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Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#281

Post by ceol »

waps wrote: post #270
tokenadult wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General reply to express thanks for and respond to the several replies my first comment here received. First of all, I wrote in the original reply, "his warnings should be taken seriously," so I am by no means disagreeing with the quoted CDC expert about his general policy recommendations. Indeed, I am on record here on HN[1] saying that I'd like to see the United States follow the lead of the EU immediately in banni…

So much wrong with this post: > There is a testable prediction here of course: either bacteria outrun human antibiotic development or they do not. I'm confident that more bacterial lineages will be wiped out before human medicine is seriously compromised by natural selection of bacteria that are resistant to most antibiotics used in human medicine. Do a dumb test. Walk into your nearest hospital, I don't even want to…

While you're in that hospital, ask what their procedure is if you've been infected with rabies within the past week. It's most certainly not "curtains and sedation."

Just that bit of factual nonsense leads me to believe you are speaking far out of your area of expertise.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#282

Post by SmokyBourbon »

> Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive. They are adapted that way, and any successful bacteria is the bacteria that’s most able to survive in the environment. So bacterial resistance is largely inevitable, because bacteria will always change in order to survive.

That's not how evolution works.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#283

Post by giarc »

tokenadult wrote: post #70

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

"they don't seek out anything" Google siderophore, bacteria seek out iron and can do it pretty efficiently.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#284

Post by sliverstorm »

evanmoran wrote: post #272
sliverstorm wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antibiotics in animal farms should be banned world wide. Why? The problem isn't giving antibiotics to animals. Antibiotics are useful for animals the same way they are useful for controlling disease in humans. The problem is abuse of antibiotics.

The issue is any antibiotic that could be used to cure humans should be used for nothing but curing humans. Every use of it rolls the dice that the bacteria will evolve an immunity to that drug. There isn't any "safe" use. Bacteria will eventually evolve and we can only reduce the amount of evolutionary pressure being applied. So in short, yes the problem is giving it to animals.

But we derive real utility from using antibiotics with animals. First in preventing blights in our food supply (which has been the downfall of many nations of antiquity) and second in controlling diseases that can jump to humans.

If there is no safe use, then what matters is risk vs. reward, right? There is real utility (reward) to using antibiotics on animals, and I don't see how we can simply blanket rule it out.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#285

Post by thenomad »

waps wrote: post #270
tokenadult wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General reply to express thanks for and respond to the several replies my first comment here received. First of all, I wrote in the original reply, "his warnings should be taken seriously," so I am by no means disagreeing with the quoted CDC expert about his general policy recommendations. Indeed, I am on record here on HN[1] saying that I'd like to see the United States follow the lead of the EU immediately in banni…

So much wrong with this post: > There is a testable prediction here of course: either bacteria outrun human antibiotic development or they do not. I'm confident that more bacterial lineages will be wiped out before human medicine is seriously compromised by natural selection of bacteria that are resistant to most antibiotics used in human medicine. Do a dumb test. Walk into your nearest hospital, I don't even want to…

As others have mentioned, in fact the incidence of MRSA has declined significantly over the last few years, down 50%:

http://www.cdc.gov/mrsa/statistics/ (Center for Disease Control)

And the numbers of infections were far lower than you're claiming here - rather than approximately 20,000 in 100,000 as claimed above, the numbers (in 2011) were 4.5 in 100,000.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/09/16/us-hospital-mrsa-id... (Reuters quoting numbers from a JAMA / CDC study).

As for rabies, according to Wikipedia quoting Sherris Medical Microbiology (4th ed.),

"Treatment after exposure is highly successful in preventing the disease if administered promptly, in general within 10 days of infection."

There's more information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies#Treatment (Wikipedia)

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#286

Post by axaxs »

alan_cx wrote: post #110

This is not my thing at all, so this might be a really silly question, but... Are people who have avoided prescribed antibiotics in a better position than those who haven't? Then, what is the effect on such people of the antibiotics taken in by eating meat from animals which have been give antibiotics? Have the people who have been avoiding completely wasted their time?

The problem as I understand it is not with human immunity, but rather that we will not be able to kill or control the bacteria when it's bad enough to warrant treatment. I'm not a biologist, but I'd wager the answer is that they are not any better off.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#287

Post by protomyth »

refurb wrote: post #251
protomyth wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure an X-Prize-style $10 Billion tax free for the next antibiotic from the government[1] would probably get something done. Given our needs, the $10B would be cheap. Heck, buy the next 3 or 4 discovered. 1) assuming said government exempts the company from court claims on the approved drug

The gov't is already looking at something similar. If an antibiotic is approved by the FDA, the company would be guaranteed at least $100M in revenue per year, going up to $350M in the fifth and final year.

The big one would be the immunity from court action. Look at all the crap going on with the Lyme Disease Vaccine and flu shots.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#288

Post by chrisamiller »

alan_cx wrote: post #110

This is not my thing at all, so this might be a really silly question, but... Are people who have avoided prescribed antibiotics in a better position than those who haven't? Then, what is the effect on such people of the antibiotics taken in by eating meat from animals which have been give antibiotics? Have the people who have been avoiding completely wasted their time?

Even if you've never taken antibiotics, you're in the same boat as everyone else. The resistant bacteria are in the environment.

If your immune system works fine, there's less to worry about. The most urgent danger is to the very young, old, or immunocompromised because of illness or therapy. (That said, MRSA infections do happen in otherwise healthy people from time to time)

If you've been avoiding meat raised with antibiotics, you're part of the solution, because you're pushing the market away from the cheap short-term fix (antibiotics) towards more sustainable solutions without the societal consequences.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#289

Post by desas »

ssmoot wrote: post #216
selectodude wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www2.costco.com/Pharmacy/DrugInfo.aspx?p=1&SearchTerm... 30 pills - $5.90. So a normal cycle would be about 3 dollars. In the United States. Antibiotics are so inexpensive.

Amoxicillin hasn't been prescribed by our Dr after it failed to do anything for the first ear infection. The Pharmacy isn't just going to substitute different antibiotics for you either. Here's what my daughter was prescribed: http://www2.costco.com/Pharmacy/DrugInfo.aspx?p=1&SearchTerm... So $230 for the course. So sure. Amoxicillin is cheap. So is Tylenol. What's your point? After the Dr's visit you're still likely…

In the UK both Amoxicillin and BACITRACIN will cost £0 for a child, the over 60s and pregnant women, or £7.85 for everyone else.

You do need to get a prescription though, which doctors don't dole out with a smile. Companies don't have to pay to advertise drugs though.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#290

Post by thwest »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #177
tokenadult wrote: post #70

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

Interesting, was going to say basically the same thing. At what point do we start designing RNA with a delivery mechanism that attaches itself to a specific bacterial type and eliminates it?

The day we're ready for that virus to mutate in the wild and target RNA it wasn't designed for?
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