Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
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Re: Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
#2Man with billions invested in electric cars disparages competing technology? I am shocked.
The fact is, you don't need to have a high energy density with hydrogen, as existing gas stations can be used to quick refuel a hydrogen car (with robotic assist, perhaps), without the logistical mess that comes from swapping an extremely heavy, very expensive, potentially user-abused battery with another one. You can even burn hydrogen in an ICE engine, as BMW has demonstrated.
The Honda Clarity FCX, a hydrogen powered car, is the only other car to achieve Type V California ZEV credits besides the Model S. Perhaps that's too much competition for Musk. The range of that car is 240 miles.
Re: Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
#3There are three pressing concerns for hydrogen fuel cells, which can be added up to "bullshit". First, energy density. I can't speak to that in detail, but the range problem is serious. Then again, the range problem seemed insurmountable for electric cars until Tesla got within spitting distance.
Second, platinum. Traditional hydrogen cells require some platinum in the catalyst, which is fine at lab scales, but unviable at industrial scale. There have been advances in alternative catalysts recently, but until fuel cells can be built without rare and exotic raw materials, they're just a toy.
Third, power source. Hydrogen comes from cracking water, which requires energy. It's just a storage medium for energy provided during the cracking process. What's the end-to-end thermal efficiency of that process? And where does the power come from? Of course, this problem applies 100% to battery-powered cars as well.
Re: Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
#4Man with billions invested in electric cars disparages competing technology? I am shocked. The fact is, you don't need to have a high energy density with hydrogen, as existing gas stations can be used to quick refuel a hydrogen car (with robotic assist, perhaps), without the logistical mess that comes from swapping an extremely heavy, very expensive, potentially user-abused battery with another one. You can even burn…
I'd give Elon Musk more credit than generic CEO spin for this. If he thought hydrogen was viable, he'd be working on it.
Re: Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
#5One advantage is the energy flux. Refueling a fuel cell, or filling a gas tank for that matter, is much faster than charging a battery.
Re: Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
#6While everyone is talking up hydrogen as a clean alternative. Currently, 90% of hydrogen is refined using fossil fuels. Even if you account for hypothetical/nonexistent future technologies, the majority of hydrogen for the foreseeable future is coming from fossil fuels. Hydrogen is truly, "Bullshit". If it launches nationwide it be because gas companies are behind the push, and they will only do it once their gasoline revenue starts to dwindle.
Re: Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
#7Man with billions invested in electric cars disparages competing technology? I am shocked. The fact is, you don't need to have a high energy density with hydrogen, as existing gas stations can be used to quick refuel a hydrogen car (with robotic assist, perhaps), without the logistical mess that comes from swapping an extremely heavy, very expensive, potentially user-abused battery with another one. You can even burn…
I'd give Elon Musk more credit than generic CEO spin for this. If he thought hydrogen was viable, he'd be working on it.
If he thought hydrogen was viable, he'd be working on it.
He is one person, and he is not all knowing. He has limited time and potential. He also has a significant ego and financial interest in their current course.
He's a smart guy, but I'm not going to write something off because he isn't into it.
Re: Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
#8There are many technical problems with hydrogen: metal embrittlement, it leaks even through solid substances, etc. They're not insurmountable, but they make hydrogen not that competitive with electric. Elon is not a fan of H2 for rockets either for those very same reasons-- embrittlement, leakage, cost of storage and handling. Guy is flat out anti-hydrogen, man.
That and once you have hydrogen it's not that hard to go from there to CH4-- methane. Once you're there, natural gas fuel cells and vehicles make more sense as methane is infinitely easier to handle and already has a ton of deployed infrastructure.
They're already doing this in Germany-- making CH4 from H2O and CO2 with surplus renewable energy and then feeding it into the natural gas grid.
Re: Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
#9IMHO hydrogen fuel cell technology is more practical. No charging time means that you can travel any range without delays as long as you have hydrogen fuel stations on your way. That kind of technology gives you more freedom I guess. You feel less limited by your vehicle.
And as far as I know charging li-ion batteries is still very slow, they will go flat at some point, faster you are charging them faster they become flat and they are very heavy.
Re: Elon Musk Calls Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars ‘Bullshit’
#10Man with billions invested in electric cars disparages competing technology? I am shocked. The fact is, you don't need to have a high energy density with hydrogen, as existing gas stations can be used to quick refuel a hydrogen car (with robotic assist, perhaps), without the logistical mess that comes from swapping an extremely heavy, very expensive, potentially user-abused battery with another one. You can even burn…
Yes, I was hoping the article actually shared some of the research Tesla must undoubtedly have done about the feasibility of fuel cells. Yes, they have limited range, but so do batteries. But while it takes _hours_ to recharge a battery, refueling hydrogen takes a couple of minutes, same as petrol.
All his other arguments about infrastructure and safety apply equally well to petrol cars, and yet here we somehow managed to implement that efficiently. I don't see any inherent reason why we can't do the same for Hydrogen.