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Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

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Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#81

Okay, I'm sold, as a citizen, that this is an issue I and my child's generation will have to face. How can I help?

Refuse behaving like the average (ahem, mostly american) and don't ask for medicine for benign illnesses.

I think as a rule people aren't as stupid as "common knowledge" would like to pretend.

My 18mo daughter has had a half dozen ear infections and two staph infections. Antibiotics each time.

Would it be better to leave a staph infection untreated with antibiotics? How? Lance and clean the infection site... and then what?

Or ear infections? I had frequent undiagnosed ear infections as a small child and now have reduced hearing to thank for it. My entire life I've had people annoyed with me asking them to repeat themselves. Some ear infections may clear up on their own. The ENT has told us this is unlikely in 12mo or younger ages since cranial structures aren't in place that allows excess fluid to drain. We can let her have a fever for a day or two, and give Tylenol, but all that's going to do is delay the necessary antibiotics. We could also have tubes inserted in her ears, but it's not like those are without risks or downsides either.

Since people don't have to play the lottery with their hearing or their lives anymore because they have access to antibiotics now sure, maybe that has some scary consequences. But it's not like people are popping them for a headache or skinned knee. And insulting people may make some feel superior, but it doesn't actually solve anything or even hint at a possible solution. You don't just "ride these things (staph) out" and hope for the best. There are consequences to going all granola "nature will take care of itself".

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#82
post #64

For the past half century, we should have been treating our antibiotics like weapons of mass destruction - tools of last resort only to be used in emergencies, with great hesitation, and only when absolutely necessary. The industry and the doctors responded: antibiotics were too profitable and the risk seemed too distant. Now we have no weapons; we're helpless and the world is again going to be a scary place where a…

> tools of last resort only to be used in emergencies, with great hesitation, and only when absolutely necessary. Really? And whose lives are you willing to play that game with? Your 8 y.o son, who just broke his arm and has new swelling three days after the arm has been set? Your wife, with a bladder infection so severe it's bleeding and she has a fever? "Sorry, son - your suffering is for the betterment of mankind.…

Those examples both qualify as necessary and emergent.

What's been happening for decades is things like kids getting a cold and doctors wanting to appease panicked parents by prescribing an antibiotic (that's obviously going to do nothing to a virus).

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#84
... and the judicious use of antibiotics requires some kind of regulatory agency or system to make sure the users follow through.

This seems like another area where libertarianism is crashing against the rocks of reality-- as socialism, communism, and all other political ideologies have already done. I have a profound sense that all political ideologies are failed, and that we're entering a post-ideological age of pragmatism driven by either populism, oligarchy, or technocracy... take your pick.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#85
It's an insane world we live in where all the measures that should be used to control the distribution of antibiotics exist, but they are used instead for opiates.

I'm not saying opiates addiction isn't a genuine problem, but it's a largely individual one. There's no widespread negative externalities to prescribing opiates to a patient. Antibiotics on the other hand, present a classic limited pool resource allocation problem (the same species of problem as the tragedy of the commons).

It's antibiotics that should require a three part pad, with one copy sent off to the federal government and investigations into over-prescribers -- not painkillers. It's antibiotics that should be subject to intentional treaties governing their distribution and use -- not painkillers. It's antibioatics that should have criminal penalties for misuse -- not painkillers.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#86
The anthropomorphism of bacterial evolution makes the article hard to follow for the layman (me). Can someone familiar with bacterial evolution please explain to me how the use of antibiotics leads to superbugs? I am clearly misunderstanding something.

I was under the impression that in a population of bacteria, genes express themselves in any number of random ways. If we expose the bacterial culture to antibiotics, the bacteria susceptible to the antibiotic dies, while the resistant bacteria lives on free to reproduce, leaving the descendant bacteria with resistive characteristics...

My question to the HN scientists is, doesn't this just destroy some subset of bacteria? Is new genetic information produced that did not exist before? Taking this trimming tree down the line, wouldn't the "superbug" antibiotic resistant bacteria have been created/survived and thrived anway? Or does the antibiotic exposure actually cause, "the bacteria to want to survive", in the sense that exposing them to antibiotics leads to more rapid mutation of descendants? Why wouldnt the antibiotic resistant bacteria be created with or without overuse of antibiotics? Isn't the spectrum of the genetic tree just trimmed?

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#87

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

Clearly, everyone needs to stop washing their hands, or bacteria will develop soap immunity. And then what will we do?

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#88
post #64

For the past half century, we should have been treating our antibiotics like weapons of mass destruction - tools of last resort only to be used in emergencies, with great hesitation, and only when absolutely necessary. The industry and the doctors responded: antibiotics were too profitable and the risk seemed too distant. Now we have no weapons; we're helpless and the world is again going to be a scary place where a…

> tools of last resort only to be used in emergencies, with great hesitation, and only when absolutely necessary. Really? And whose lives are you willing to play that game with? Your 8 y.o son, who just broke his arm and has new swelling three days after the arm has been set? Your wife, with a bladder infection so severe it's bleeding and she has a fever? "Sorry, son - your suffering is for the betterment of mankind.…

What I'm saying is that we should have treated antibiotics, as a worldwide community, like a stockpile with a finite lifespan and only a limited availability. As few uses as possible, with the goal of saving lives, not making people "feel better".

What I'm imagining is something like the Department of Energy, or even the CDC here, regulating the ability to prescribe antibiotics and establishing rules that must be followed for their use. Antibiotics would not be a privately exchanged commodity, but a highly regulated resource managed for the public good.

So, would this hypothetical future involve antibiotics for your hypothetical cases? Probably? Possibly? If doctors discerned that the cause of the swelling was bacterial infection, if the bladder infection was threatening to the wife's future well-being? Then I'd suppose so.

But you wouldn't get antibiotics just for being alive like you do now. They practically hand them out like candy at doctor's offices.

Oh, you have a cough? Have a z-pak. Doesn't matter if it's a viral infection going around, who cares if giving you this drug just ensures that some day in the future we won't be able to treat someone who is actually dying with azithromycin. What's important is that taking these pills will make you feel like we're doing something to help.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#90

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

You are completely right in that bacteria don't have the ability to "want" things since they don't have any kind of brain. However, desire is a useful way for the general public to understand what is happening. It's like saying "Water wants to flow to the lowest point of a room" or "The arrow wants to follow the path of least air resistance"
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