Who wants to talk about china? Over the last few days the volume of transactions on btcchina has doubled. Gov run chinese media outlets have been surprisingly positive about btc. What is going on? One of the potential uses of btc is capital flight, and that is something that china has been incredibly strict about with their capital controls. Why aren't they clamping down? edit: some commentary from someone in china f…
I wonder if it's because they anticipate capital flight - from America, and the dollar. They would dearly love a de-dollar-ized world.
Bitcoin breaks $200
191–200 of 209 posts
Re: Bitcoin breaks $200
#192I just sold all of my bitcoins. Here's to hoping the bubble burst.
Re: Bitcoin breaks $200
#193Earlier quoted context omitted.
Obviously an altcoin would have to be as much better than Bitcoin (in the ways people care about) as Bitcoin was better than the preceding stuff. A system that is decentralized and doesn't require mining could have this property.
How would coins become valued without mining? Isn't this the way that bitcoins actually become valued in terms of existing currency?
Re: Bitcoin breaks $200
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
Rock solid? A system that requires vast and increasing amounts of the world's energy to be devoted to it just to achieve a vague notion of security? A system that can be attacked in polynomial time (but let's just say that is not a problem; after all, we never defined security in a way to preclude such things!)? That is your definition of "rock solid?"
>requires vast and increasing amounts of the world's energy "Vast" is hyperbole, IMHO. It might in fact on net conserve energy, by, e.g., reducing the need to haul cash around in armored vehicles and the need for things like bank buildings. It takes a lot of energy to build and operate buildings.
By comparison maintaining security for paper money requires substantially less energy than attacking paper money, even if you include the energy devoted to fighting theft (the analog of the energy devoted to securing individual Bitcoin wallets). The energy spent on counterfeiting detection is far lower than the energy needed to counterfeit modern paper money, and Chaum showed the world how to create digital cash that is even more secure against counterfeiting, with security against double spending, and that allows for anonymous transactions, while still requiring far less energy to be spent on security than would be needed to attack the system.
So no, there is no hyperbole here. Bitcoin is a very inefficient system. It might work in practice, but that does not make it efficient, nor does it even make it an improvement over what we have now. The only think Bitcoin has going for it is that there is no obvious central authority (I say no obvious central authority because in practice, the Bitcoin developers have as much power over the currency as a central bank -- they can e.g. cause a block chain fork at any time, as they accidentally did a few months ago).
Re: Bitcoin breaks $200
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
Rock solid? A system that requires vast and increasing amounts of the world's energy to be devoted to it just to achieve a vague notion of security? A system that can be attacked in polynomial time (but let's just say that is not a problem; after all, we never defined security in a way to preclude such things!)? That is your definition of "rock solid?"
> A system that requires vast and increasing amounts of the world's energy to be devoted to it just to achieve a vague notion of security? Consider the current system of government fiat and credit: the US dollar requires vast armies and navies, the vast and expanding Federal Reserve apparatus with its system of member/franchised banks, employees of the IRS, the US Treasury, the Secret Service (I'm redundant, I know).…
Let's set aside the issue of whether or not the military is needed for the dollar to remain valuable and speak strictly about security here. You have mentioned no less than three security goals:
1. Preventing counterfeiting
2. Enforcing tax payments
3. Preventing theft
Now, let's see what happens with Bitcoin:
1. Counterfeiting is replaced with double spending, and you need at least as much energy to be devoted to fighting this as would be needed for an attack.
2. Bitcoin does nothing to reduce the energy needed to enforce tax payments, it just shifts the goalposts slightly.
3. Wallet theft is a real problem, and Bitcoin itself does nothing to combat it; you still need to devote energy to securing your wallet, no different than depositing money in a bank.
In other words, two of the three security goals that you mentioned are not addressed in any meaningful way by Bitcoin, and the one that is addressed still winds up requiring far more energy than is needed for fiat currency. Even if paper money turns out to be too inefficient, Chaum's research in the 80s and 90s showed the world how to create digital cash that simultaneously allows for anonymous payments, prevents double spending, and requires substantially less work to secure than it does to attack (exponentially so, in fact). The difference, of course, is that Chaum's designs all called for a central bank in the system, which you already need with fiat currency.
"I'd be surprised if the energy required to keep billions of ASICs humming is more than the energy required to keep millions of people humming."
The problem is that the number of ASICs that need to be powered on will increase as the attempts to attack Bitcoin increase, until eventually half the energy output of the planet is being devoted to ASICs. That is not the situation with fiat currency, as noted above.
"Further, the fractional reserve system is far from rock solid. It appears to be solid, until a tipping point of confidence is reached, at which point it falls like a house of cards. It's the definition of a con game."
Except that the "confidence" is not in the banking system, but in the legal system that supports it. Fiat currency's value stems from tax laws, debt laws, torts, and so forth, and when people talk about "confidence in the government" what they really mean is "confidence in the government's ability to enforce the law." If you truly lack such confidence, try this: stop paying your taxes. As long as people believe that failure to pay their taxes will result in losing their property and freedom, people will continue to demand payment with fiat currency -- the only currency they can use to pay their taxes. Likewise with people who have to repay loans (you would be insane to issue a loan in a currency that courts do not deal in), people who have been ordered by courts to make certain payments (again, this will be in whatever currency the courts deal in), people who must pay parking tickets, etc., etc., etc.
The vast majority of businesses that "accept Bitcoin" are actually accepting fiat currency payments, via a service that exchanges Bitcoin for fiat currency, and only because that allows them to accept electronic payments with lower transaction fees compared to the alternatives. That is how pervasive the "house of cards" is.
Re: Bitcoin breaks $200
#196Earlier quoted context omitted.
That completely depends on how they were stored. If the FBI has his encrypted wallet file and DPR has the password to access those keys then the coins are effectively dead don't you think?
That's presuming that only DPR had the wallet in the first place. Even without the wallet he may have some trusted cohorts that can move the funds via a brain wallet or something similar. Now having said that, that hasn't yet happened and I presume over time it's less likely to happen. But still, there's nothing intrinsic to Bitcoin that says "Party A has the wallet and therefore only they can spend what's in it".
When the private key is gone, the coins are gone.
Might be forgetting a brain-wallet, might be forgetting the password or losing the keys to the encrypted drive the keys are in, or it could be as simple as losing or destroying the physical media the keys are on.
We can quibble about the precise technical details of how DPR specifically might have those coins secured, but it's mostly moot at this point; that address likely won't be changed any time soon.
Surely removing 1% of the current circulation must have a few effects.
Re: Bitcoin breaks $200
#197Earlier quoted context omitted.
Rock solid? A system that requires vast and increasing amounts of the world's energy to be devoted to it just to achieve a vague notion of security? A system that can be attacked in polynomial time (but let's just say that is not a problem; after all, we never defined security in a way to preclude such things!)? That is your definition of "rock solid?"
If it's not solid you are free to attack it. You keep dismissing the incentives that Bitcoin gives, which should also be considering part of its security. The only rational attacker that could have an interest and resources to stop Bitcoin is a nation-state. But even then, another nation-state could jump in and protect it. We can't know what will happen until it happens. The field that you want to use to model everyt…
We do not speak of "incentives" in other contexts. When we talk about encryption, we do not spend our time pondering the "incentives" for not attacking our cryptosystems -- we create encryption systems that cannot be feasibly attacked regardless of what motivates the attacker. When we talk about secure multiparty computation, we do not talk about what might motivate the attacker, we only talk about how to prevent attacks.
There are historical counterexamples to the idea that we can analyze a cryptosystem's security in terms of the attacker's "incentives." A famous and well-known example is the German Enigma cipher from WWII. After the war, German cryptographers were captured and interrogated (the TICOM operation), and one of the things they revealed was that they knew that Enigma could be attacked, but did not believe that it would be worth the effort. Even the assumption that the attacker will act rationally is bad -- we should be secure against irrational attackers too.
"We can't know what will happen until it happens"
We can, however, design systems that maintain their security properties regardless of what happens (at least under standard cryptographic hardness assumptions, though sometimes we can even get information theoretic security). ElGamal encryption is secure against any polynomial-time chosen-plaintext attack -- provably so. The GMR signature system is secure against any polynomial-time adaptive chosen-message attack. For a very strange construction that illustrates how we can defend against attack strategies we cannot even imagine, consider this work on non-malleable commitments (the construction is on page 13; it is very strange, but the strangeness is key to the security proof, or in other words there are possible attack methods that nobody is aware of that the construction prevents):
http://eprint.iacr.org/2010/483.pdf
"The field that you want to use to model everything is too narrow for Bitcoin."
Yes, things are very easy when you have no clearly-specified goals, requirements, or constraints. How can there be any technical criticism of Bitcoin if this sort of response is considered valid? Anything anyone says is wrong with Bitcoin could always be dismissed as being "too narrow."
Re: Bitcoin breaks $200
#198I've been wondering whether people benefiting from bitcoin stability (silk road?) mightn't have been manipulating exchange rates. This seems to be weak evidence in support of that (though I still wouldn't say it seems likely).
For what it's worth, Silk Road provided it's own system for guaranteeing stability of price (that is to say, there were guaranteed exchange rates if desired). I don't think there was any need for SR users (well, sellers at least) to manipulate the price for that reason.
Re: Bitcoin breaks $200
#199Earlier quoted context omitted.
>requires vast and increasing amounts of the world's energy "Vast" is hyperbole, IMHO. It might in fact on net conserve energy, by, e.g., reducing the need to haul cash around in armored vehicles and the need for things like bank buildings. It takes a lot of energy to build and operate buildings.
For Bitcoin to be secure, you always need more energy to be devoted to honest mining than is devoted to an attack -- and that ignores the energy spent securing Bitcoin wallets (which is fine to ignore, as it is tiny by comparison). In the limit, half the energy output of the entire planet would have to be devoted to Bitcoin for it to remain secure, though I doubt that any economy could sustain such a situation. By co…
Re: Bitcoin breaks $200
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There isn't any conclusive proof that the #1 address (111,111 BTC) belongs to DPR, but it is clearly linked to SR in one way or another. It's been linked to Ross/altoid's Bitcointalk posts, and has a sum consistent with the first year of SR commissions. That's all as conclusive evidence as anyone needs for it.
So what happens when you remove 1% of the currency from the market in a single day?