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Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

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Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#341

Post by wpietri »

tommorris wrote: post #280
wpietri wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen, brother. As Martin Fowler writes, "Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand." If Mr. not-Einstein had actually measured some production issue that could be traced back to commenting, he could always have written a filter that stripped them before production. My guess, though, is even he didn't believe this excuse; it was just a glib thing to…

That's the thing: if he'd said "I was cranking this code out quickly, but, yes, it could do with some comments", I'd have been fine with that. The excuse is worse than what he's trying to excuse!

Agreed! If somebody is going to bullshit me in an interview to cover up their weaknesses, I have to assume they're going to do it after I hire them.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#342

Post by nnoitra »

theanirudh wrote: post #123

Even after reading Jeff Atwood's post[1], it still amazes me how many programmers fail the fizz buzz test. We dont even get the chance to ask tough programming qustions. Simple questions like fizz buzz, loops and recursion were good enough to filter out a lot of applicants. [1] http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-programmer...

I don't believe this.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#343

Post by kelnos »

lelf wrote: post #114
kelnos wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to believe that as well. Now I'm not so sure, mainly through my own personal experience. For 5.5 years (2004-2009), I was a core developer and maintainer over at Xfce. Over that span of time I wrote tens of thousands of lines of code, perhaps more. I did this in addition to my job, which morphed from engineering project management to programming tasks that I didn't find very challenging. After I left that job,…

It's interesting, because all my Xfce contributions are on git.xfce.org, and not on GitHub In this case, just mention it. It's not about github literally.

Sure. The intent of that statement was kinda muddled. I was more referring to the fact that my "main body" of open source code, to which my contributions stopped 4 years ago is all on a non-GH site, so it's interesting to look at what is on GH, which represents what I've done out in the open since then, which is... not much.

My assumption (which maybe is wrong) is that 5 years of OSS contributions that ended 4 years ago may not be all that impressive. Why did I abandon it? etc.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#344

Post by kelnos »

Xylakant wrote: post #98
kelnos wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you vastly underestimate the time it takes to learn these sorts of things. Sure, you can teach someone to write a simple, passable iOS app that does a few basic things in a couple weeks. But they're still going to be a raw-novice iOS developer. Maybe the app you need them to build is super simple, but if not, you're doing yourself and your company a disservice by not hiring someone who's done iOS before. I'm…

I think you vastly underestimate the value of "other knowledge" for any kind of complex undertaking. Unless you get a domain expert who happens to be a rock star programmer and a ninja architect and top-notch devops, you'll have to compromise somewhere. Take an iOS game: Depending on the game it can be vastly more value to have knowledge of game programming and game AI than having knowledge about iOS frameworks. If t…

Sure, there are always compromises. I wasn't claiming otherwise. I was merely pointing out that ramping up on a particular platform is nowhere near as easy as the parent suggests.

Games are a bit of a special breed, though, and there are several game engines out there that hide the platform pretty well. I draw a bit of a distinction between "building and iOS app" and "building an OpenGL app that runs on iOS". The latter is much easier if you lack iOS experience but have the required OpenGL skills.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#345

Post by kylesnc »

dusklight wrote: post #313
wpietri wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen, brother. As Martin Fowler writes, "Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand." If Mr. not-Einstein had actually measured some production issue that could be traced back to commenting, he could always have written a filter that stripped them before production. My guess, though, is even he didn't believe this excuse; it was just a glib thing to…

Since you bring up Fowler, in his book Refactoring he gives specific examples to show why you should AVOID comments. In most situations you should try to write code that is so clear no comments are needed. That's what the above code is really about.

This! Far too often I see worthless comments because people were taught in school "you should comment your code".

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#346

Post by sejje »

betterunix wrote: post #225
sejje wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whereas the wealthy are more advantaged to "escape?" Where do they escape to?

Did you read more than half of one sentence that I wrote? The poor are at a disadvantage when it comes to escaping their position in life ; if you need this spelled out for you, the poor are disadvantaged when it comes to making decisions about saving money that could help them improve their financial situation . Wealthy people are better able to make rational decisions about their money, which helps in retaining wea…

I understand the position very well, and I think most people with common sense do. Of course it's harder to become wealthy than it is to achieve other positions in life.

I just think it's a stupid use of "disadvantaged." It implies someone else has an advantage, in to quote you, "escaping their position in life." It's like saying a bad baseball player is at a disadvantage when trying to become a good baseball player. It almost doesn't make any sense.

Same goes with the idea that poor people are disadvantaged about making decisions wrt money. Of course they are, or they quite likely wouldn't be poor any longer. To use baseball again, or any skill really, the experts of course have advantages in deciding the best course of action, and typically have more ways to achieve it.

What I've gleaned here is that you consider poor people to be novices at the skill of acquiring wealth. I agree. For some reason people seem to think it's far different from rookies in other skills, because acquiring wealth is perceived by most to be a vital part of success, happiness, health, etc.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#347

Post by etler »

Some reasons why math puzzles might be popular:

* CS majors take math in college, but there's lots of other stuff going on with their CS classes so it's hard to remember math class. If you can actually remember anything from math class, you must be smart!

* Programmers like math, even though it's not their job, so interviewing is the only opportunity to have fun with it!

* We had to deal with this crap when we were interviewing so now it's time to make someone else suffer! >:)

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#348

Post by davidkassa »

tommorris wrote: post #120

Here's the test I've used in the past: Before the interview, I ask them to write some code to access an HTTP endpoint that contains exchange rate data (USD, EUR, GBP, JPY etc.) in XML and to parse and load said data into a relational database. Then to build a very simple HTML form based front-end that lets you input a currency and convert it into another currency. I ask them to send me either a link to a repository (…

This works really well for the candidate too. They walk into an interview with a known quantity and can "own" the conversation by discussing the reasons that they made the decisions that they did. It ends up being a very context-specific portfolio.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#349

Post by jonnathanson »

taurath wrote: post #305
jonnathanson wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul Graham uses the word "smart," essentially, to mean someone who "works smart" rather than simply "working hard." In other words, it's someone who won't build a 12-foot fence if a 6-foot fence is sufficient. And it's someone who's capable of realizing as much in the first place. This isn't "common sense," per se. It's more like uncommon sense. Most people follow an effort in -> result out paradigm, believing the t…

I use the word efficient instead of lazy. If I can do x and 1 other thing if I do x efficiently, why not strive to find as many things I can do efficiently as possible?

In this case, the word "lazy" is being used as a sort of tongue-in-cheek reference for "efficient." I don't think it's meant to be interpreted as being literally lazy.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#350

Post by mrcactu5 »

fnbr wrote: post #216
mrcactu5 wrote: post #158

It looks like Emma's math prowess is working against her. It's ironic the app developers - who need her help the most - are pushing her away. OK, so there is a difference between computer science and programming. that's why there are two different stack-exchanges: cs.stackexchange.com stackoverflow.com And we can make even finer distinctions if we wanted to. it's actually really fucking INCREDIBLE that * you can know…

Hey, I'm a math major looking for jobs/internships in data science. Any chance I could ask you a few questions about your experience finding work?

it was a nightmare due to most programmers' ironic contempt for computer science, let alone mathematics. they consider it a waste of money.

I moved to another country (Puerto Rico) have 2 excellent data scientist jobs and have enjoyed every day since.

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