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Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

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Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#281

Post by csharp_gooru »

tokenadult wrote: post #150

There are many discussions here on HN about company hiring procedures. Company hiring procedures and their effectiveness is a heavily researched topic, but most hiring managers and most job applicants haven't looked up much of the research. After reading the blog post kindly submitted here and some of its comments, and then reading most of the comments here on HN that came in while I was asleep in my time zone, it lo…

ITL;DR;

Can someone provide a succinct TL;DR; version of this. Quoting academic papers is annoying and very abstract. Keep It Simple Stupid.

p.s. I in ITL;DR; = Insanely.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#282

Post by aestra »

ebrenes wrote: post #271
jacalata wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how is that breaking any law?

IANAL, and I'm just taking a stab in the dark here... But might it have to do with the work contract not being made in good faith? That is in my basic understanding of contracts it is assumed as part of the contract that there is good will between both parties to fulfill what is set out in the contract. Practices such as these would indicate that the company has no actual intention of hiring the employee and is using…

IANAL or a legal scholar.

In the US, generally people are employed at will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment) which means an employee can be dismissed by an employer for pretty much any reason and an employee can leave their job for any reason, without any notice.

There's some exceptions (for example, discrimination) but you're free to take a job in bad faith too.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#283

Post by famo »

evacuationdrill wrote: post #250
sdoowpilihp wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You used the term "gently fire". I was wondering if you could elaborate on how you "gently fire".

Stop sending paychecks, they figure it out eventually.

First make sure the fire sprinkler system is operational..

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#284

Post by vishvananda »

gridspy wrote: post #279
axc123 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not able to understand any of the questions because the jargon used is unfamiliar although the concepts look simple. Are all these terms specific to a particular framework ? Genuine question, thanks.

No, from what I see they are not. CRUD relates to "Create, Remove, Update, Delete" which is the most common set of actions when dealing with database records. Then the GP goes into detail about a tree-like structure of categories and their parents. If you're not familiar with trees and graph algorithms this might be quite daunting. Do some googling on the terms I mentioned and please ask about specific things you do…

> No, from what I see they are not. CRUD relates to "Create, Remove, Update, Delete"

Minor correction: create, READ, update, delete

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#285

Post by RogerL »

infinite8s wrote: post #257
cromulent wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart & Gets Things Done, as Joel Spolsky would say. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing... http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Gets-Things-Done-Technical/dp/15...

Or as Steve Yegge likes to say, "Done and Gets Things Smart" http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/06/done-and-gets-things...

That is an extremely long post that says "hire the rock stars". Except, of course, we all cannot only hire the very best, transformative people (like Jeff Dean at Google). And, he has no way to actually identify them, except "ask around".

It's entirely unrealistic as a business strategy. It sure is nice if you luck into it.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#286

Post by matwood »

tommorris wrote: post #120

Here's the test I've used in the past: Before the interview, I ask them to write some code to access an HTTP endpoint that contains exchange rate data (USD, EUR, GBP, JPY etc.) in XML and to parse and load said data into a relational database. Then to build a very simple HTML form based front-end that lets you input a currency and convert it into another currency. I ask them to send me either a link to a repository (…

We interview people this way where I currently work. I'm always surprised at the people who send stuff in that flat out doesn't work. There is no time limit, and the task isn't very hard. I actually consider it a type of fizzbuzz.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#287

Post by aestra »

morgante wrote: post #6
rdtsc wrote: post #2

Two possible reasons: 1) I think a lot of start-ups want to hire "smart" people. Because they expect the new person to eventually wear many hats. Objective-C, Java, Android, CSS, server side concurrency, monitoring. An we've all seen Hunter and Schmidt reference that tokenadult usually posts when talk about interviewing comes around and it does seem that a general mental ability test (like an IQ test) combined with a…

I think (1) is probably the primary reason, along with the fun factor I mentioned above. But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests? Or at least asking for SAT scores? We shouldn't have to run through training puzzles just to prove we're smart enough to build a site.

Because SAT scores are a very very terrible indicator of if you have 1) the ability and 2) the work ethic to build a site.

And how old are you? SAT scores? I'm only in my 30s and I don't remember my what my SAT scores were or remember if they were "good" or "bad" I only know that they changed the SATs after I took them because my youngest sibling took a different one than I did, with some crazy scoring. I wouldn't be able to find my SAT scores even if I wanted to.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#288

Post by pdonis »

Xylakant wrote: post #231
pdonis wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I store a lot of "I've read the solution for that problem somewhere while researching something else." Yes, this is more what I was thinking of as "encyclopedic knowledge" (which may not be what the parent post to mine meant by the term).

"encyclopedic knowledge" is usually meant to be "I can recite the cities phonebook by heart"

Not necessarily; an encyclopedia isn't just an unconnected catalogue of facts--at least, it's not supposed to be. An encyclopedia article about a given subject is supposed to show the subject as a connected whole; it will contain facts, but will also contain important relationships between the facts, general principles, theories that explain the facts, etc. If you have that kind of knowledge of a subject, you don't have to memorize all its facts, because you can easily get to them from the facts you do have memorized via one of many interconnections.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#289

Post by vellum »

NAFV_P wrote: post #254
mattjaynes wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can confirm this works in my own experience of trial-and-error interviewing over 2000 applicants and hiring over 200 for my clients and myself (since ~2006). Nearly 100% of the applicants were remote, so I think that helped me from falling into traps of poor "traditional" hiring practices. The point of hiring these remote folks was to help accelerate whatever team I was on. It can be a great way to scale your exist…

"filter out (gently fire) the ones that aren't as good." If the employee finds out you "hire more than you need of the top performers", you end up with a potential court case. If I found this out about a former employer, I would have pursued them to the end of hell.

It depends if they're full time or freelancers. If they were just freelancers on Odesk, then he's simply not using them in the future.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#290

Post by JanezStupar »

wiredfool wrote: post #268
at-fates-hands wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. Reminds me of all the roadies (road cyclists) who would come into our bike shop and demand the lightest components to put on their bikes, then rave about how they cut 10 GRAMS off of their bike weight. Totally ignoring the fact they're pushing almost 220lbs themselves.

Way back when, I did a small study (4 cyclists, 5 reps). The question: Could the rider tell which was heavier between a water bottle filled with lead shot, and one with glass beads. (2.5kg vs ~ 1kg). 1 rider managed to get more than half right. And he was a frame builder riding his own bike.

Not all weight loss on a bike is bad.

Sure most road bikes are pretty much light enough. Thus one should prefer an efficient bike over a light one.

But there nothing wrong with having light wheels for keeping the rotational and sprung mass as low as possible on a full suspension mountain bike.

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