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Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

nytimes.com

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Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#101
post #3

From the page: One specialist said that as many as five million lines of software code may need to be rewritten before the Web site runs properly. It sounds like they've been doing a little too much coding and not enough designing.

Was that specialist in the running for being paid to fix it, and thus was overinflating the estimate so he could get paid a few hundred million to fix it up? I like the idea of a government healthcare program, I really do. But this website... man, someone lined their pockets on this scam, big time.

Not even vaguely a scam, as I reply to you elsewhere in this discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6586603

Unless you want to posit that the contracts were accepted by companies that knew it could not be delivered in the time required. And even then, people are optimistic, and I strongly suspect they didn't think HHS/CMMS would be so insane about the number of changes demanded during the process, going all the way through the week before launch (!!!).

Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#102

Yeah, after reading that article, I get the very strong feeling that these "federal consultants" are in for a second round of greedy-greedy-grabfest. They're throwing insane sounding numbers out there so that they can justify egregious compensation. Someone needs to call these people out on their bluff, there is no way that this terrible site is even close to the LoC numbers they're throwing out there. I'm so sick of…

Geeze, how many times are you going to make this point in this discussion? See my first reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6586603

I point out there's absolutely no way the contractors could have won with the insane management they were under, unqualified CMMS government bureaucrats doing the integration and constantly requiring changes, through the week before launch, some of which is detailed in this article.

Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Cheaper, faster, better. All three. > [citation needed] Lookup the history of laser eye surgery over the last, say, ten years. Free markets work. That's irrefutable. The problem is we've never had a free market system when it comes to medicine.

You're cherry picking: laser eye surgery has effective competition, elastic demand, no information asymmetry, and it is priced well within the annual (even monthly) earning potential of most Americans. It's a service that I would expect the free market to be able to provide efficiently and it does not surprise me that it succeeds. The free market is very good at optimizing value creation under certain circumstances a…

> Anybody can cherry pick a counterexample. Anybody can speculatively extrapolate it out to a convenient conclusion.

And anybody can do what you are doing. You have an obvious bias against free markets. That's fine. However, I will argue that, if you live in the US, almost everything around you is the product of free market forces to a large extent. Perfect free markets don't exist. That's a given. Please don't point out that this or that market isn't perfectly free. I get it.

Here's the difference with our views.

My view is centered around the idea that government should be limited to a very small area of responsibility and influence in our lives. I won't get into the details. Suffice it to say it would be a small fraction of what it is today, in rough strokes perhaps reducing it by 50 to 75% --gradually, over a period of 25 to 50 years.

Your view, if I read between the lines, feels like it is almost diametrically opposite mine. You don't have anything in your HN profile so I can't even attempt to understand where you might be coming from. For all I know you work for the government and are actually being paid by the current ACA/Obamacare "machine" in some form. I don't know.

I, well, I've been an entrepreneur since forever and fully understand what it means to live a life where you make sound fiscal, social, educational and personal decisions based on the idea that you --not the government-- should be responsible the well-being of your family and community. That's my frame of reference, not sure what yours might be.

Going back to the size of government, I would, for example, push to de-militarize our country over, say, 25 to 50 years and encourage others to do the same. We could and should take the lead in making this a better world. The military alone accounted for 25% of our federal budget. We don't need them. I know many think we do. We don't. The world needs to make supporting massive military forces a thing of history.

I would also eject government from most areas affecting our lives. Take the Department of Education as an example. The US keeps testing significantly sub-par when it compared to other less developed countries. Yet we spend more than almost anyone per pupil and we have a massive DoE. I don't think they are effective. Gone.

Anyhow, you can continue along these lines and remove government from all of these areas. Gradually. Over twenty-five to fifty years.

Are regulations required? Are they important? Yes. Of course. In certain areas and with moderation. That's a different topic. No, I am not advocating a wild-west guns-a-blazing free market. Controls are almost required in certain areas. This would be a very important function of a limited government.

When it comes to healthcare the free market approach would create efficient markets quickly due to competition. If I could go to Nevada and get heart surgery for less, with excellent quality and even a free slot machine in my room during recovery, hey, that's fantastic. California would have to find ways to compete. And they would. Technologies would be developed in order to make the medical business more efficient at all levels. Within a span of ten to twenty-five years the medical industry would be transformed into an incredibly efficient machine providing above-par services for everyone. No tax dollars or government involvement would be required outside of putting in place sensible and limited regulation in order to help, not hinder, the development of a useful free market.

Corner cases will exist. In other words, the good, the bad and the ugly exist in all markets. Free or government originated and controlled. That's human nature. Neither school of thought can guarantee that bad things will not happen. Stories abound about people in highly socialized medical systems having to wait months or years for treatment. The free market equivalent might be not having enough money or insurance to pay for something or horrible cases of medial malpractice.

How do we deal with the cost of ownership situation? I'd say much like we do with auto insurance. You own it. It's yours. It does not live and die with your employer. You get to insure yourself for anything you want and for as much as you want. I barely saw the inside of a doctor's office during my 20's. My guess is I would have been receptive to the idea of a low cost catastrophic health insurance policy with a relatively high deductible. If my auto insurance guy had said something like "Martin, for another $50 per month we can offer you catastrophic health insurance with a $10,000 deductible" my guess is I would have gone for it without much thought.

Should medical insurance be mandated? Yes and no. It would be really easy to setup a situation where, for example, if you want to drive a car you have to also have health insurance coverage. This is just an example I am pulling out of my hat and it is not well thought out. The intent here is to say that, yes, I understand that an idea market would benefit from wide-spread market participation. In this hypothetical nearly everyone 16 and over would purchase health insurance to some extent or another. That would take care of a huge percentage of the US population.

You would personally be responsible for the cost of your health care. In other words, if you go to a hospital and don't have insurance you have to pay the bills yourself. This is no different from going to the dealer with a car that broke down and no extended service warranty. This would setup a situation whereby everyone in the US would buy medical insurance, just like they buy car, homeowners and renters insurance. You know how they offer you insurance for your new TV or refrigerator at the appliance store. Well, al lot of people buy it.

If you were free to shop for health insurance from any provider I can easily see companies competing for your business everywhere. I could, for example, see State Farm and Alstate offering people various health insurance policies along with their homeowners or auto policies.

What to do about the really poor who can't afford any of it. We help them, of course. The details are not important here. We help them. Period. If you can't possibly pay for your insurance we, as a society, have a mechanism through which you will have it. This is where the idea deviates from the auto insurance model.

What to do about the whole pre-existing condition situation. Well, your insurance policy has an "uninsured motorists" element? Perhaps every insurance policy would have a nominal "pre-existing conditions" fee that we collectively contribute towards dealing with these costs. This would be the socially responsible way to deal with situations where you have someone who might require half a million dollars of annual healthcare bills per year due to their unique situation.

Oh, yes, all healthcare insurance should be 100% tax deductible.

All of this would work and evolve very well with minimal government intervention. Laws and regulations would be passed in order to serve the free market and reduce government involvement to a minimum, not hinder it.

The beauty of taking such approaches is that --due to the lack of set-in-stone laws-- we can always let observe them for a while and THEN decide whether they are working or not. The problem with passing legislation like the ACA/Obamacare is that you have 40,000 pages of legislation and rules that is convoluted, unmanageable and incomprehensible to such an extent that no citizen can even begin to comprehend it. And, to make things worst, we don't have the freedom to move away from it and modify it in an evolutionary and dynamic way. It is set in stone and it takes a tremendous amount of work to change it's path. I mean, they can't even get a medium complexity website to work correctly on launch. That should tell the entire story.

The most fundamental issue here is that it is nearly impossible to have dozens or hundreds of people to create legislation that is, for lack of a better term, perfect. It takes years, decades to painfully evolve these things. This is where free markets have an overwhelming advantage because they can evolve as fast as humanly possible. The power of entrepreneurship and free markets has been massively demonstrated by the explosion of this little thing we call the Internet.

Anyhow, we'll probably disagree. And that's OK. To each his own.

Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#104
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we've burned at least $400 mil. Last week, everyone insisted it only cost $55 million, and the $768 million figure was misreported. I can only speculate what the final cost will be after victory is declared over these bugs. It is too late to get mad about any new/rising costs related to the ACA. It is here to stay and might as well be Medicare 2. "Law of the land" as the president is fond of saying. Here's a fas…

" It is too late to get mad about any new/rising costs related to the ACA. It is here to stay and might as well be Medicare 2. "Law of the land" as the president is fond of saying. " Reading this article, which at the highest level tells us the people in charge, the White House and HSS's CMMS (all government workers, the latter the integrator of the project) are still discussing how to fix this mess, hoping to have a…

It does seem that dismal failure is the most likely outcome.

I just read between the lines when I hear "law of the land" and I think there's NO way the administration is going to back down here. It is going to be interesting to see how things go down. Perhaps they'll just hire human agents to take the place of the broken site?

Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're cherry picking: laser eye surgery has effective competition, elastic demand, no information asymmetry, and it is priced well within the annual (even monthly) earning potential of most Americans. It's a service that I would expect the free market to be able to provide efficiently and it does not surprise me that it succeeds. The free market is very good at optimizing value creation under certain circumstances a…

In abstract terms, I would say single payer systems could (and should) work well. It sounds nice to me on paper. I think an issue is that America has a system of government that lacks a long-term focus. Every 4 to 8 years, we get a new 40-100 year agenda. This leads to tinkering with these social programs and the original goals can get lost, muddled. That, and our government is not structured very well to deliver ser…

[deleted]

Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#106
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" It is too late to get mad about any new/rising costs related to the ACA. It is here to stay and might as well be Medicare 2. "Law of the land" as the president is fond of saying. " Reading this article, which at the highest level tells us the people in charge, the White House and HSS's CMMS (all government workers, the latter the integrator of the project) are still discussing how to fix this mess, hoping to have a…

It does seem that dismal failure is the most likely outcome. I just read between the lines when I hear "law of the land" and I think there's NO way the administration is going to back down here. It is going to be interesting to see how things go down. Perhaps they'll just hire human agents to take the place of the broken site?

Can human agents handle the 7 million applicants needed to make it work (at least early on)? And they'll still need computer support, I presume you're only talking about taking the place of the front end web site.

Trying to do 7 million identity checks manually? Well, maybe something can be kludged to speed that up. On the other hand subsidy calculations had better be done by computer, and that's not working reliably right now; it could probably be Tiger Teamed into something that works and at scale, a simple calculator (heck, I bet it could be done in Javascript).

But again I get to the biggest problem of management. Starting at the very top, the CEO of this organization (Obama, per his Rose Garden event earlier today), they're in (public) denial of how bad the problem. In part they can't help it, they aren't experienced IT people, they aren't like us who can look at less than 1,000 words of clues and know "it's fucked".

Really salvaging anything out of this needs decisiveness. E.g. to get your kludge working for 2014---and again I note the critical detail of subsidies, especially since the only plan that can now be offered is gold-plated (e.g. coverage of your children through age 26) and inherently very expensive even before you get to community rating (everyone under 50 is to pay a bundle to cover the 50-64 set)---someone would have to decide to start it now. "Wastefully", in parallel with trying to get the site to work. As it is, millions are losing their old-fashioned high deductible major medical polices as of Jan 1st, things start getting really bad for a lot of people really soon.

If this nightmare drags out to 2016 (which today we can't discount, and that's even counting the website or its substitutes vaguely working), do you really expect it to be the law of the land by 2018?

Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#107
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's best to keep the code in everything to the minimum!

> It's best to keep the code in everything to the minimum! Optimizing for readability is usually most important. Readability is usually more important than reusability, in fact, although readability very often enables reusability. But we're talking about mission-critical embedded code, which is a special case in many respects. Still, making it as readable as possible makes bugs easier to find.

I definitely agree with that. I was thinking of minimal code as a way to achieve the ends of readability and maintainability. Excessive minimalism goes against both of those goals, when you get to compactness for the sake of compactness, perl code golf or micro optimization style.

Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're cherry picking: laser eye surgery has effective competition, elastic demand, no information asymmetry, and it is priced well within the annual (even monthly) earning potential of most Americans. It's a service that I would expect the free market to be able to provide efficiently and it does not surprise me that it succeeds. The free market is very good at optimizing value creation under certain circumstances a…

> Anybody can cherry pick a counterexample. Anybody can speculatively extrapolate it out to a convenient conclusion. And anybody can do what you are doing. You have an obvious bias against free markets. That's fine. However, I will argue that, if you live in the US, almost everything around you is the product of free market forces to a large extent. Perfect free markets don't exist. That's a given. Please don't point…

> And anybody can do what you are doing.

So where are the 12 countries of comparable levels of economic development that are operating with 1/2 to 1/10 the administrative overhead of the social systems? If it's so easy to support your argument with evidence, why are you arguing with philosophical generalities instead?

I understand how the free market is supposed to work and why it usually does work. I'm still a huge fan, contrary to what you read between the lines (I agree with you on deregulating education, for instance). More on that later. But something is amiss in the US health care market. The socialists are beating us. By a lot. Not overall -- I do not believe their higher taxes provide a better net return for someone like me, not by a long shot, and so I do not plan to move -- but it is possible to section out health care for purposes of comparison, and our system has a 2-3x worse value proposition along that dimension. We agree about the general principle that markets tend to have better self-corrective properties than rulebooks. Where we disagree is that I think healthcare is an exception. A glaring exception that we have invested trillions of dollars into trying to fit with our free-market-is-better worldview and still find that it's an exception.

What we already pay for medicare and medicaid would provide universal coverage if our system were as efficient as Canada's or the UK's (in terms of percent PPP adjusted GDP/capita spent on health care), so this isn't even a philosophical question about how much we want to spend on government-mandated charity. It's a question of getting value for the money we are already spending. You could postulate that the medicare/medicaid administration is spending money inefficiently, but two facts suggest otherwise. First, the overhead of medicare/medicaid administration is ~4% (vs 12-30% for private insurance), so the money isn't disappearing into the bureaucracy itself. Second, medicare/medicaid drive a harder bargain than almost any other insurance plan (ask your doctor next time you visit, the administrators do not like dealing with medicare/medicaid), so it's difficult to argue that medicare/medicaid are responsible for our inefficient health industry

We have two options:

1) Keep spending 20% of our GDP on health care (vs our neighbors at 10%) while we try different permutations of rules and hope to land on one that fixes the free-market feedback mechanisms and kicks it into gear.

2) Cut our losses and copy/paste the well-tested solution, using other countries as a template until we have health care at 10%GDP rather than 20%GDP.

Option #1 has been in the whack-a-mole stage for decades (the feedback mechanisms are broken by default, more on that later) and shows no concrete or theoretical signs of letting up. I'm for option #2. The experiment has been run, the results are in. Healing the feedback mechanisms in the health care market was a harder problem than it appeared. Saying that the next set of regulations or deregulations will make our health care market do a U-turn seems crazy to me, like saying that communism is the way of the future in 1990 while the USSR is busy collapsing. This time it's our turn to cut our losses, thankfully in a less traumatic manner.

> I can't even attempt to understand where you might be coming from.

MSCS student, ex-libertarian. I took a health care policy class in undergrad to satisfy a requirement and it changed my worldview. I had heard that the US health care market was inefficient, so I thought it would be a good place to look for opportunity. I thought that maybe I could use my data-fu to help make it better and possibly turn a profit while I was at it. The health care policy class seemed like a good place to get a 1000-ft overview of the industry.

As I learned more about the specifics of the health care market, I realized that the problems weren't due to a strange historical trajectory, barriers to entry, obsolete/misguided regulation, failure to adapt, monopoly/lock-in, or any of the challenges I was familiar with from the software world. Not fundamentally, at least. The usual problems have analogs in other countries, yet they're doing just fine compared to us. The "traditional problems" explain waste on the order of billions while the efficiency gap that needs to be explained is on the order of trillions (per year). I have already listed the explanations that I think best account for the gap, but to make a long story short: the health care market is the perfect storm of factors that frustrate the free-market optimization process.

> When it comes to healthcare the free market approach would create efficient markets quickly due to competition.

So why has this failed to happen? Our current system does not suffer from monopoly or regulatory capture. You are free to shop around between insurance plans, yet they operate at 3x the overhead of medicare/medicaid and 2x the entire (not just insurance) administrative overhead of the UK's NHS. What do you plan to change and why do you think it will succeed where past efforts have failed? I have an explanation for the failure, and it is not one that deregulation will fix:

Customer feedback through buy/no buy decisions is broken in the health insurance industry. In other industries that also aren't plagued by monopoly, dissatisfied customers push back by not buying a product. In the health care industry, a strange situation arises where customers don't know that they've been duped. The bulk of costs are concentrated in a handful of customers (those that get cancer, get in a terrible car crash, etc) so if an insurance policy figures out a way to dump the expensive patients, 99% of customers never realize that the piece of mind they have bought is worthless and they never demand better. This isn't hypothetical, this is precisely what happens: by design, private insurance doesn't actually shield one from the cost of a debilitating injury or illness, leading to the statistic that 62% of personal bankruptcies in the US were caused by medical problems even though 78% of those people had insurance [1]. The insurance companies make sure each person has just enough "responsibility" so that they can dump their own responsibility if it ever actually comes due.

Innovation in the insurance industry happens largely by finding new, clever ways of fooling people into thinking they are covered for something that they are not.

> How do we deal with that situation? I'd say much like we do with auto insurance. You own it. It's yours. It does not live and die with your employer.

Paying for insurance through your employer is a legitimate market innovation that decreases statistical, legal, and bandwagon-effect risk. Your employer provides two services to you: they aggregate your bargaining power with the rest of their employees, driving a better deal, and they decorrelate you with the specifics of the plan because you will take what they give you (bypassing the bandwagon effect).

This isn't speculative, the market has already spoken, and declared that individual insurance is more expensive (if you think otherwise, go form an individual insurance company and sell it for less). As a libertarian, you, of all people, should respect this. The PPACA's exchanges attempt to mimic the beneficial effects of an employer without going through an actual employer. I suspect it will work at least a little bit, after adjusting for the fact that we have sealed some of the loopholes individual plans used to dump sick people, which will necessarily increase costs. But I don't think we'll see administrative overhead fall even to 2x what we see in a typical social system, because most of the market problems are still there, and a single-payer system is still the limiting case of addressing the problems in [2] individually.

> What to do about the really poor who can't afford any of it. We help them, of course. The details are not important here. We help them. Period. If you can't possibly pay for your insurance we, as a society, have a mechanism through which you will have it.

This creates a discontinuity in marginal incentives (or reduction in marginal incentives if you pro-rate between income brackets) that single-payer doesn't, in addition to retaining all the problems of small plans listed in [2].

> we can always let observe them for a while and THEN decide

The cost of continuing to experiment with the free-market solution is 45,000 deaths [3] and $1.3T every year ([4], assuming we could figure out how to emulate one of the ~16 single-payer systems ahead of us in health rankings [5] right now).

I would not call this "beautiful." Health care just isn't as compatible with the free market as the internet. We've tried extraordinarily hard to make it work but it hasn't happened yet. A better analogy for free market health care would be the Hurd, scaled to $2.7T/yr. It's a beautiful vision, but there are some major architectural and compatibility issues that have been proven to separate concept from reality, all while there's a perfectly serviceable Linux kernel available that is

* 2x as fast costs 1/2 as much

* less buggy USA is dead last in top 17 health rankings [5]

* more compatible doesn't pay 2x for drugs because of size disparities when bargaining w/drug companies

* has a smaller memory footprint observed lower administrative overhead in medicare vs private, universal vs private [6]

[1] http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6582753

[3] http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-find...

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_heal...

[5] http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/01/new-health...

[6] http://www.pnhp.org/publications/nejmadmin.pdf

Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#109
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$800 pays for roughly one day's worth of work for a senior developer in the US. One thousand lines of working, debugged code (which is presumably what's being paid for) sounds like an awful lot of code for one person to write in a day, if the problem domain has any degree of complexity. Some parts of healthcare.gov could be quite complex, e.g., interfacing to other government systems whose APIs are not well documente…

It costs ~$300K for a senior web developer in the US currently?

Assuming a normal work schedule (weekdays only), with four weeks of vacation, the usual holidays (10) plus paid sick days (5), there are about 225 work days a year. Multiply 800 by 225 and you get $180000, which is a very reasonable yearly cost for a senior developer (it needs to include salary, benefits, office space, equipment, support staff, etc.).

Re: Contractors See Weeks of Work on Health Site

#110
post #34

Sounds like a load of crap to me. Seriously, 500 million lines of code? I bet not even mission-critical code written to power NASA spacecraft and satellites are anywhere near that length. I propose they give the project to the HN community, divide up the $400 million figure amongst the participants and give us a weekend and I bet we'll have more to show than that of the so-called developers the government hired. I am…

While I completely agree with you in general, a nit pick: > I bet not even mission-critical code written to power NASA spacecraft and satellites are anywhere near that length. That doesn't seem like a good example. You want to keep the code in those kinds of things to a minimum, and that's probably not too hard.

Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that they have extremely strict standards at NASA, to the point that multiple reviews are mandatory on even single line changes for mission critical systems.

Here's an example: http://spinroot.com/gerard/pdf/P10.pdf

And another: http://lars-lab.jpl.nasa.gov/JPL_Coding_Standard_C.pdf

Dunno how closely these are followed in day-to-day operations, but they clearly put some thought into it.

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