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Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

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Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#231

Post by Xylakant »

pdonis wrote: post #224
Xylakant wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I store a lot of "I've read the solution for that problem somewhere while researching something else." I still can't recite the stdlib doc for any of the programming languages I work with. There's only so much stuff I can cram in my head and reference docs are fairly easy to look up.

I store a lot of "I've read the solution for that problem somewhere while researching something else." Yes, this is more what I was thinking of as "encyclopedic knowledge" (which may not be what the parent post to mine meant by the term).

"encyclopedic knowledge" is usually meant to be "I can recite the cities phonebook by heart"

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#232

Post by ap22213 »

tokenadult wrote: post #199
ap22213 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could someone explain what 'mean validity' means in [1]? Also, how good of a GMA score is needed? That is, how good of a score would be needed for me to stop looking at other candidates?

Let me give you a short answer as a place-holder for a possible edit into a longer answer. 1) "Validity" here means hiring of better rather than worse workers, as all workers can be rank-ordered as to work performance, as compared to doing nothing to select workers. 2) Usually in hiring, it's enough to outrank someone else in a hiring criterion, for example general mental ability, without necessarily reaching any par…

Sorry - I see now that my original questions were pretty vague.

I guess what I'm trying to do is turn your interesting information into an actionable strategy.

Let's try a scenario: Let's say I have a job opening for a senior developer. My goal is to recruit the best possible candidate. I put out the job description, and I get 20 responses. I give them all the same structured interview (.53 validity). I also ask for a work sample (.54 validity). So, in terms of these validity scores, what do the numbers represent? Does a .53 validity say that the applicant who scores better will have a 53% chance of performing better in practice?

Anyway, lets say I somehow qualitatively interpret their interviews and samples, and using some rubric, rank them. (But, how do I know that my qualitative review is even valid?) Then, I give the top candidate an offer.

How do I determine how much better the top candidate is than the 2nd top (to give an appropriate offer)?

Also, how do I know if need to continue interviewing another 20 candidates?

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#233

Post by [deleted] »

mattjaynes wrote: post #202
tokenadult wrote: post #150

There are many discussions here on HN about company hiring procedures. Company hiring procedures and their effectiveness is a heavily researched topic, but most hiring managers and most job applicants haven't looked up much of the research. After reading the blog post kindly submitted here and some of its comments, and then reading most of the comments here on HN that came in while I was asleep in my time zone, it lo…

I can confirm this works in my own experience of trial-and-error interviewing over 2000 applicants and hiring over 200 for my clients and myself (since ~2006). Nearly 100% of the applicants were remote, so I think that helped me from falling into traps of poor "traditional" hiring practices. The point of hiring these remote folks was to help accelerate whatever team I was on. It can be a great way to scale your exist…

[deleted]

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#234

Post by RogerL »

microtonal wrote: post #82
michaelpinto wrote: post #26

After reading this I have a dumb question: The person behind the post is a CS major but only played a little bit with the C programming language in college — is this pretty common these days?

Yes, I have seen many CS graduates who couldn't write C or C++ if their life depended on it. In fact, I have seen CS graduates who could explain the theory behind, say, parallel computing in detail, but could barely write scripts. Knowing everything about painting doesn't make you a good painter :).

Yes, I've interviewed plenty of people with degrees from very prestigious Universities that evidenced no real programming skills, and a wonderful (truly) grasp of algorithms. Trouble is, the former is necessary on a day to day basis, and the second is always available from some contractor when you need it.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#235

Post by morgante »

rmah wrote: post #198
morgante wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start with a simple interview which simply checks that the person (a) has a brain; (b) is somebody you're comfortable working with. Then do a short-term contracting gig (maybe just 1 day). If it works well, hire them. Edit: clarify length which even the best people could do.

Sounds good except for every job opening, I get 40 resumes, interview 15 people and of those 5 look reasonable. Which of those 5 do I give the short term contract gig to? So you're back to the same problem.

> Which of those 5 do I give the short term contract gig to? So you're back to the same problem.

Ideally, all of them. It's not hard to find a couple one-off tasks that you'd like to see done in a day. Or could could proceed sequentially until you find one whose work you like.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#236

Post by tieTYT »

tokenadult wrote: post #176
ElDiablo666 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really shouldn't recommend a "mental acuity" test since those are complete and utter nonsense. I think it's a better screening criteria in the sense that you wouldn't want anyone working for you who believes that IQ tests are worthwhile.

I would be happy to see any research evidence you have found to back up your opinion about mental ability (NOT "acuity") tests. This is an issue that is very heavily researched in multiple countries with varied cultural backgrounds across hundreds of kinds of occupations in almost all kinds of workplaces.

I'm not sure if I'm replying to what you're asking, but if you read "How would you move Mount Fuji", the beginning of that book discredits IQ tests.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#237

Post by tokenadult »

bradleyjg wrote: post #219
tokenadult wrote: post #150

There are many discussions here on HN about company hiring procedures. Company hiring procedures and their effectiveness is a heavily researched topic, but most hiring managers and most job applicants haven't looked up much of the research. After reading the blog post kindly submitted here and some of its comments, and then reading most of the comments here on HN that came in while I was asleep in my time zone, it lo…

It seems awfully rude to cut and paste this gigantic comment, which is now virtually pinned to the top of a discussion thread of a blog post to which it barely responds. There's nothing in this that indicates it is at all customized for the article it is attached to. Especially given that you and the author seem to have some things in common (connection to small-town Minnesota & love of mathematics) it seems like you…

The currency of upvotes suggests that many readers have appreciated my comment, perhaps because it provided them new information about an important set of issues. That set of issues has been discussed in many of the comments here, and was discussed in the original article.

The currency of actual cash money, which is not provided in our information-sharing environment here on Hacker News, would free up time for me to customize each comment I post more thoroughly. Under current conditions on Hacker News, I will continue to post for free, and I hope some of my comments are worth more than I bill for them.

Thank you for letting me know your opinion.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#238

Post by tokenadult »

tieTYT wrote: post #236
tokenadult wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be happy to see any research evidence you have found to back up your opinion about mental ability (NOT "acuity") tests. This is an issue that is very heavily researched in multiple countries with varied cultural backgrounds across hundreds of kinds of occupations in almost all kinds of workplaces.

I'm not sure if I'm replying to what you're asking, but if you read "How would you move Mount Fuji", the beginning of that book discredits IQ tests.

I'm familiar with other books by the author of How would you move Mount Fuji? Thanks for that book suggestion. I have just requested the book from my county library system for use in updating my FAQ document for posting on my personal website.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#239

Post by onezeno »

DigitalSea wrote: post #171

I failed mathematics in school, for the life of me I can't grasp them beyond the basics, but give me laptop and a copy of Sublime and I'll code anything you want. I can code, but I would fail any mathematical test given to me. This kind of approach has always bothered me, there are a lot of good developers out there bad at maths but posses strong problem-solving and highly analytical skills. Being a developer is 80%…

Actually...

“Never memorize something that you can look up.”

― Albert Einstein

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#240

Post by [deleted] »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #220
nappy-doo wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check my comment history. I work at Google. I stand on that.

What makes you think "I work at Google" provides sufficient data to an interviewer such that they should exempt you from their interviewing process? The fact that you have a job somewhere else says very little.

[deleted]
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