Live data from Hacker News

Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

countaleph.wordpress.com

171–180 of 354 posts

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#171
I failed mathematics in school, for the life of me I can't grasp them beyond the basics, but give me laptop and a copy of Sublime and I'll code anything you want. I can code, but I would fail any mathematical test given to me. This kind of approach has always bothered me, there are a lot of good developers out there bad at maths but posses strong problem-solving and highly analytical skills.

Being a developer is 80% Google and 20% actual coding knowledge. We are hackers at the end of the day, not miniature Einstein's with encyclopaedias for brains.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#172

Here's the test I've used in the past: Before the interview, I ask them to write some code to access an HTTP endpoint that contains exchange rate data (USD, EUR, GBP, JPY etc.) in XML and to parse and load said data into a relational database. Then to build a very simple HTML form based front-end that lets you input a currency and convert it into another currency. I ask them to send me either a link to a repository (…

> I asked him why the PHP code he sent me didn't have any comments. "I don't believe in comments because they slow the PHP interpreter down." Sorry, he can be smarter than Einstein but I ain't letting him near production code.

This one wasn't smarter than Einstein. It's been a while since I've been near a live PHP installation, but IIRC running with an opcode cache like APC probably means the comments will be parsed at most once (every server restart?)

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#173

There are many discussions here on HN about company hiring procedures. Company hiring procedures and their effectiveness is a heavily researched topic, but most hiring managers and most job applicants haven't looked up much of the research. After reading the blog post kindly submitted here and some of its comments, and then reading most of the comments here on HN that came in while I was asleep in my time zone, it lo…

You really shouldn't recommend a "mental acuity" test since those are complete and utter nonsense. I think it's a better screening criteria in the sense that you wouldn't want anyone working for you who believes that IQ tests are worthwhile.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#174

If you're running a startup, the most important thing to hire for is fit. Do they fit in your culture? Do they fit a need that will help you achieve your milestones? Do they fit in the overall growth trajectory of your company? Do they have competency in the specific area you are hiring for and/or where your startup is building overall competency? Can they manage themselves and their time well? The likelihood of fail…

Except that what a lot of startups mean by "fit" is "they think just like me" or even, "they have a similar background to the rest of the team." Sure, that may make them easier for you to talk to or hang out with, but it reduces the diversity of the team, and increases the likelihood of groupthink. The other things you mention (after "fit in your culture") are not what most people mean by "fit". "Fit" is an intangible that can be used by screeners to keep from going out of their comfort zone.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#175

There are many discussions here on HN about company hiring procedures. Company hiring procedures and their effectiveness is a heavily researched topic, but most hiring managers and most job applicants haven't looked up much of the research. After reading the blog post kindly submitted here and some of its comments, and then reading most of the comments here on HN that came in while I was asleep in my time zone, it lo…

I really don't see how this is relevant to this post, since the research you're citing is about hiring people for routinized or semi-routinized labor, like at a car manufacturing plant. C.f. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4614430

Your question about relevance is fair. The author of the blog post kindly submitted here complains that she [I wrote "he" before edit prompted by kind reply below] gets math quiz questions when applying for programming jobs. That's a mistake on the part of the hiring companies in two ways.

1) The main thing to look for when hiring programmers is programming work samples. In general, for any kind of work, a work-sample test will tell you more relevant information about which person to hire than any other kind of hiring procedure. (Some other kinds of hiring procedures have incremental validity in addition to work-sample tests, but none have higher validity than work-sample tests.)

2) Insofar as a math quiz question purports to figure out which applicants are smart and which are not, it is legally risky, as are IQ tests and AS ARE EDUCATION CREDENTIAL REQUIREMENTS if the quiz question is not validated as related to bona-fide job requirements. The company that publishes the Wonderlic personnel test hires a lot of psychometricians and lawyers to be able to defend the use of that test for hiring for dozens of kinds of jobs, and I think the balance of the evidence across hundreds of studies on many different job categories in multiple countries shows that general mental ability matters for performing most kinds of jobs well. But in the United States, a smartness test that a hiring manager just makes up is legally risky. It's a good idea to hire smarter rather than dumber job applicants, but it's an especially good idea (for legal protection in the United States) to make sure that the smartness test you use has been validated for your workplace.

The research I'm referring to is more generalizable across more occupations than you suggest. In other words, the usual relevance of my FAQ about company hiring procedures in the frequent HN threads about company hiring procedures is that companies almost always go wrong by 1) NOT using work-sample tests, a very good way to find competent workers, and 2) often go wrong by posing trick question tests, presumably to find smart people, without validating those tests and ensuring that those tests don't have disparate impact on applicants. Companies can and should do better, and research tells them how. The people who often complain on HN about company hiring procedures are largely correct, but usually just share anecdotes about what they would do differently if they were hiring, or what they would like hiring managers to do the next time they apply for a job. Research on this topic is abundant, and it applies to people seeking work as programmers as well as to most other occupations.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#176

There are many discussions here on HN about company hiring procedures. Company hiring procedures and their effectiveness is a heavily researched topic, but most hiring managers and most job applicants haven't looked up much of the research. After reading the blog post kindly submitted here and some of its comments, and then reading most of the comments here on HN that came in while I was asleep in my time zone, it lo…

You really shouldn't recommend a "mental acuity" test since those are complete and utter nonsense. I think it's a better screening criteria in the sense that you wouldn't want anyone working for you who believes that IQ tests are worthwhile.

I would be happy to see any research evidence you have found to back up your opinion about mental ability (NOT "acuity") tests. This is an issue that is very heavily researched in multiple countries with varied cultural backgrounds across hundreds of kinds of occupations in almost all kinds of workplaces.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#177

Here's the test I've used in the past: Before the interview, I ask them to write some code to access an HTTP endpoint that contains exchange rate data (USD, EUR, GBP, JPY etc.) in XML and to parse and load said data into a relational database. Then to build a very simple HTML form based front-end that lets you input a currency and convert it into another currency. I ask them to send me either a link to a repository (…

> "I don't believe in comments because they slow the PHP interpreter down." For some bizzare reason, a lot of PHP devs obsess over mini benchmarks and tiny speed issues while ignoring massive latency factors (like the DB). I find it amusing, though, as PHP hasn't been a direct interpreter for years. It compiles to an internal opcode array and interprets that. While its opcode compiler is silly (it doesn't build an AS…

> For some bizzare reason, a lot of P̶H̶P̶ devs obsess over mini benchmarks and tiny speed issues while ignoring massive latency factors (like the DB).

This sort of behaviour isn't unique to PHP Devs, not even close.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't see how this is relevant to this post, since the research you're citing is about hiring people for routinized or semi-routinized labor, like at a car manufacturing plant. C.f. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4614430

Your question about relevance is fair. The author of the blog post kindly submitted here complains that she [I wrote "he" before edit prompted by kind reply below] gets math quiz questions when applying for programming jobs. That's a mistake on the part of the hiring companies in two ways. 1) The main thing to look for when hiring programmers is programming work samples. In general, for any kind of work, a work-sampl…

Did you just say that education requirements are legally risky?

That is brand new to me. I would love it to be true, but I've never encountered it in reality.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't see how this is relevant to this post, since the research you're citing is about hiring people for routinized or semi-routinized labor, like at a car manufacturing plant. C.f. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4614430

Your question about relevance is fair. The author of the blog post kindly submitted here complains that she [I wrote "he" before edit prompted by kind reply below] gets math quiz questions when applying for programming jobs. That's a mistake on the part of the hiring companies in two ways. 1) The main thing to look for when hiring programmers is programming work samples. In general, for any kind of work, a work-sampl…

FYI: the author is a she. I find it fascinating that most posters assumed that the author was male.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#180
This is a great post. And also from the other side of the fence. As typically we see, these kind of posts, from people who did not like Math puzzles, and as a result suffered in the interview rounds.

But this one talks about getting inadvertent benefit of being good in Maths to get selected for programming, and suffering the consequences later on.

Also, it highlights the importance of what is mostly taken for granted and thought of as mundane stuff, of programming - the idiosyncrasies, jargon, and best practices of various languages and OS environs.

Post reply on HN