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Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

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Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#21

Post by eksith »

jzzskijj wrote: post #11
eksith wrote: post #5

This may be another reason people are eager to start their own company in lieu of working for someone else. If the questions are rubbish and completely unrelated to the actual job, then there's a huge disconnect between the interviewer (or HR company, as a lot of places outsource that) and where the actual work is to take place. I blame both. The irony is that, in an effort to hire the "smartest" people, they leave o…

This may be another reason people are eager to start their own company in lieu of working for someone else. If it is so, then it is a good thing. Right?

Well, if they really enjoy the challenge (and it is challenging), then yes. But I think there's something sad about being forced into it because hiring practices are archaic elsewhere. It doesn't have to be this way.

I don't like it that so many new startups fail and I have a feeling many of these (besides lacking an idea, failure in implementation etc...) are due to a lack of other options. If you can't get hired with the skillset you have, even though it should be more than enough, it can drive you to do desperate things. Including becoming a founder.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#22

Post by morgante »

kenster07 wrote: post #18
morgante wrote: post #3

It is rather unfortunate how little correlation most tech interviews have with their respective jobs. It's largely a lose-lose situation for everyone. Developers who could easily build great systems but aren't experts in graph theory get passed over while brilliant mathematicians who can't necessarily code get hired. Result? Companies simultaneously having to fire employees while facing a supposed talent crunch. Give…

Okay, but any specific suggestions on how to do that?

Start with a simple interview which simply checks that the person (a) has a brain; (b) is somebody you're comfortable working with.

Then do a short-term contracting gig (maybe just 1 day). If it works well, hire them.

Edit: clarify length which even the best people could do.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#23

Post by auggierose »

Xylakant wrote: post #7

I actually like asking math questions on interviews. It shows how people approach a problem. Asking code questions in an arbitrary interview setting shows just about nothing - no access to a reference doc, somebody peering over your shoulder. Heck, I couldn't code my way out of a wet paperback in that setting. Certainly, asking only math questions is stupid as well, people should know at least a little about the stuf…

I think you don't get the point. Learning a new language after you programmed for 5 years in a variety of paradigms like assembler, object-oriented, purely functional, will take you between a couple of hours and a week. But if you have NOT had those 5 years of varied programming experience, then the new language is not your problem. Learning the concepts is, and that will take time.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#24

Post by dagw »

jph wrote: post #9

> Breadth-first search from both ends. I believe this is deeply valuable. For some roles, I would much prefer to hire someone who can quickly see the value of breadth-first search from both ends. If he/she doesn't happen to know the syntax of Ruby, or Java, etc. it's less important to me.

I agree as such. Given the the choice between someone who's really smart and can solve hard problems, but a mediocre programmer or someone who's a good programmer, but sucks at problem solving, I'd chose the first one. That being said, if you hire someone in the first category, don't expect them to be happy and competent at writing an iPhone CRUD app in two weeks after seeing Objective-C for the first time.

I think that was the thrust of the article. If you're hiring based solely on someones math and algorithm skills with zero concern about their coding skills, you cannot turn around and be angry when their coding skills aren't what you needed. It's not math vs programming as such, but more generally about tuning your interviews to finding the skills you actually need (as opposed the skills you think you need).

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#25

Post by tylerkahn »

jph wrote: post #9

> Breadth-first search from both ends. I believe this is deeply valuable. For some roles, I would much prefer to hire someone who can quickly see the value of breadth-first search from both ends. If he/she doesn't happen to know the syntax of Ruby, or Java, etc. it's less important to me.

I mean this as a genuine question:

http://sixarm.com/

This is your company, correct? (I stalked your Github profile)

Seems like the types of problems you're solving are exactly those which require far more domain experience with Ruby/HTML5/Javascript/whatever than the ability to see the value of various graph-searching techniques.

Would you hire this guy even though he's said quite plainly that he lacks the experience with these technologies (and has difficulty picking up new ones owing to that lack of experience)?

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#27

Post by tylerkahn »

michaelpinto wrote: post #26

After reading this I have a dumb question: The person behind the post is a CS major but only played a little bit with the C programming language in college — is this pretty common these days?

He said he went to a small liberal arts school.

We definitely do C programming at my program (shell, malloc implementation, thread pool, web server, MIPS assembler/interpreter etc.). I go to Virginia Tech, a public university.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#28

Post by greendestiny »

dagw wrote: post #24
jph wrote: post #9

> Breadth-first search from both ends. I believe this is deeply valuable. For some roles, I would much prefer to hire someone who can quickly see the value of breadth-first search from both ends. If he/she doesn't happen to know the syntax of Ruby, or Java, etc. it's less important to me.

I agree as such. Given the the choice between someone who's really smart and can solve hard problems, but a mediocre programmer or someone who's a good programmer, but sucks at problem solving, I'd chose the first one. That being said, if you hire someone in the first category, don't expect them to be happy and competent at writing an iPhone CRUD app in two weeks after seeing Objective-C for the first time. I think t…

I think you're still suffering from same mindset that led to the problem described in the article though. He wasn't a mediocre programmer - he was a bad programmer. If you make a lot of assumptions about people in an interview you will probably be disappointed.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#29

Post by dpiers »

Hiring engineers is hard, and companies haven't really figured it out yet. Even the best companies rely on puzzles and gimmicks that often have little to do with day-to-day programming.

At one company I interviewed with, I was asked to implement a queue using two stacks. At that time in my programming career, I had worked with C, C++, Obj-C, Lua, Python, JavaScript, SQL, and a handful of DSLs developing games, game development tools, and web applications. Want to know what I had never done? Written a queue using two stacks. My immediate response to the question was, "Why would you want to do that?"

If you really want to know if someone has the capacity to pull their weight as an engineer, ask them about what they've built. Even if they are fresh out of college, the best engineers will have projects they can talk about and explain. Ask how they approached/solved specific problems. Ask what they're most proud of building. Ask what was most frustrating.

Those are the kind of questions that will provide insight into a person's problem solving capabilities and offer a decent picture of what they're capable of doing.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#30

Post by nagrom »

morgante wrote: post #22
kenster07 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but any specific suggestions on how to do that?

Start with a simple interview which simply checks that the person (a) has a brain; (b) is somebody you're comfortable working with. Then do a short-term contracting gig (maybe just 1 day). If it works well, hire them. Edit: clarify length which even the best people could do.

Generally speaking, high quality people won't take a short-term contracting gig. They are probably working elsewhere and don't need that level of uncertainty; they're looking for something better, not just anything.
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