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Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

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Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#2
Two possible reasons:

1) I think a lot of start-ups want to hire "smart" people. Because they expect the new person to eventually wear many hats. Objective-C, Java, Android, CSS, server side concurrency, monitoring. An we've all seen Hunter and Schmidt reference that tokenadult usually posts when talk about interviewing comes around and it does seem that a general mental ability test (like an IQ test) combined with a work samples seem to predict future performance of that employee. Well except that one can't just straight up give IQ test to job applicants (there is a court case about that). So we are left with a job sample (which many forget to give, as is the point of the author). But instead many focus on the GMA and create proxies for it -- cute little puzzles about blenders, round manhole covers, and other such silly things.

2) Those interviewing don't know the technical stuff and are afraid you'd out-bullshit them. "How does an Ajax request work" well if the interviewer themselves doesn't quite know the details the might not be able to evaluate it properly. They could have it written down but well, some technical questions have many different levels of depth that a candidate might descent to. So a quick written answer to the question might seem wrong but it is really because the candidate is more advanced. So puzzles seems to be a generic and "easier" to handle.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#3
It is rather unfortunate how little correlation most tech interviews have with their respective jobs. It's largely a lose-lose situation for everyone. Developers who could easily build great systems but aren't experts in graph theory get passed over while brilliant mathematicians who can't necessarily code get hired. Result? Companies simultaneously having to fire employees while facing a supposed talent crunch. Given that this hurts everyone, how did we even get into this situation?

Probably because the only person who doesn't lose from this is the interviewer: they get to have fun. Honestly, when you spend all day buried in code, it's fun to play with puzzles for a change.

Perhaps it's time we started optimizing interviews for hiring success rather than interviewer happiness.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#4
My opinion on this is that most of the interview processes is pretty old(over 20-30 years) and back then a good programmer was also a pretty good mathematician, and now most of the people that do interviews just use the same old patterns because, maybe, some of them don't know any better or because that is what they found in some books they have read.

I tend to hate the interviews that ask me to solve math and logic brainteasers because I don't see the value in them regarding my knowledge of programming.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#5
This may be another reason people are eager to start their own company in lieu of working for someone else. If the questions are rubbish and completely unrelated to the actual job, then there's a huge disconnect between the interviewer (or HR company, as a lot of places outsource that) and where the actual work is to take place. I blame both.

The irony is that, in an effort to hire the "smartest" people, they leave out the wisest. Which is arguably more useful.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#6
post #2

Two possible reasons: 1) I think a lot of start-ups want to hire "smart" people. Because they expect the new person to eventually wear many hats. Objective-C, Java, Android, CSS, server side concurrency, monitoring. An we've all seen Hunter and Schmidt reference that tokenadult usually posts when talk about interviewing comes around and it does seem that a general mental ability test (like an IQ test) combined with a…

I think (1) is probably the primary reason, along with the fun factor I mentioned above.

But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests? Or at least asking for SAT scores? We shouldn't have to run through training puzzles just to prove we're smart enough to build a site.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#7
I actually like asking math questions on interviews. It shows how people approach a problem. Asking code questions in an arbitrary interview setting shows just about nothing - no access to a reference doc, somebody peering over your shoulder. Heck, I couldn't code my way out of a wet paperback in that setting.

Certainly, asking only math questions is stupid as well, people should know at least a little about the stuff they're supposed to work with, but teaching an actual language to a smart person eager to learn is a breeze compared to teaching problem solving to someone who memorized the reference manual.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#8
The interview questions cited in this article are more CS questions than math questions. These questions are perfectly valid if the job will require lots of coding using said CS concepts. But if the job DOESN'T use those CS concepts on a regular basis, the graph algorithm test will generate some false negatives.

On the other extreme, testing knowledge of language syntax is just as bad. A smart programmer will be able to figure out the syntax of any language in short order, especially if it belongs to the same class of a language with which they are already familiar (such as functional vs imperative, dynamic vs static).

An effective interview process would test both reasoning and coding capabilities, and it can be done simultaneously -- i.e. code the solution to reasoning puzzles.

There can be an air of intellectual masturbation to some programming interviews. Lots of otherwise reasonably smart people are close-minded about what is predictive of productivity on the job, and I think that is the real issue that this article should address.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#9
> Breadth-first search from both ends.

I believe this is deeply valuable. For some roles, I would much prefer to hire someone who can quickly see the value of breadth-first search from both ends.

If he/she doesn't happen to know the syntax of Ruby, or Java, etc. it's less important to me.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#10
post #2

Two possible reasons: 1) I think a lot of start-ups want to hire "smart" people. Because they expect the new person to eventually wear many hats. Objective-C, Java, Android, CSS, server side concurrency, monitoring. An we've all seen Hunter and Schmidt reference that tokenadult usually posts when talk about interviewing comes around and it does seem that a general mental ability test (like an IQ test) combined with a…

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