Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#31

Post by Brakenshire » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:36 AM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #25

Brakenshire wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of its Maps data and many of its APIs already existed for Google Maps on the desktop. Within the mobile space, and relative to a mobile-only competitor, Google's access to that data is effectively free.

You mean it has a low marginal cost. However, it required a huge capital investment to create, from which they are now rightfully reaping the benefits.

I'm certainly not saying they are wrong to leverage that asset. I don't think the point is about right or wrong as regards Google's action, but simply the extra barrier this represents for a competitor.

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#32

Post by takluyver » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:36 AM UTC

rattray wrote: post #3

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Linus Torvalds famous for his iron grip of Linux? In a very different way, to be sure, but it's my understanding that just because you make something open source doesn't mean you have to (or even should) relinquish control. I think it's also pretty standard to open-source the core and keep the baubles proprietary. GitHub, for example, made their git interaction library open-source b…

Every open source project has someone (or some group) in control, and contributions can't land without their say so. But anyone who feels that the current leadership is doing it wrong can fork the code and try to persuade people to use their version. This is very important to the way open source software works.

Google have a level of control beyond that: they undermine anyone trying to fork Android by not letting them use Google's apps and services (even as they allow such use on competing systems like iOS).

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#33

Post by Mikeb85 » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:37 AM UTC

I think alot of people misunderstand what open source means. It's nothing more than allowing people to see the source code, and use it (including forking).

Open source doesn't require you to cooperate with anyone, it doesn't require you to give away access to APIs, it doesn't require you to do anything beyond whatever is explicitly stated in the license.

Google, Canonical, Oracle, IBM, Red Hat, SUSE, etc... aren't required to be good team players or corporate citizens. They're just required to abide by the terms of the licenses on code they use...

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#34

Post by dmethvin » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:43 AM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #24

Most of the examples of Google closed apps that are not part of the AOSP release are in fact apps that are based off of Google data-center services. Would it really help Samsung if the source to the Gmail app was open? Since Google controls the server side, and the client-server protocol, it limits the amount of innovation they can do. The web equivalent would be like claiming that Chrome OS isn't open because the so…

> Google is stuck behind a rock and a hard place. If they don't try to create incentives for a unified experience, they get bashed for encouraging fragmentation, if they do assert a level of control, they get bashed for not being completely open.

This is exactly the position Microsoft was in during the mid-1990s, even before they went after Netscape. The article is saying that Google is even applying some of the same strong-arm tactics to keep OEMs in line. Fortunately, Google can point to Apple and say they're not a monopoly the way Microsoft was in its market. Plus, Android still looks really open compared to iOS.

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#35

Post by TylerE » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:47 AM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #27

TylerE wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History doesn't really support this. Even Linux had to get some corporate backing (initially Red Hat, Suse, and the like), and later Canonical and others before it really took off. Open source has proven to be a long term survivor, but not a winner.

Open source is most definitely winning in infrastructure, high performance computing, servers, etc... Ask IBM or Oracle if Linux is losing...

You're conflating the reasons though...would Linux be winning in those areas without big corporate $$$?

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#36

Post by andrewflnr » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:47 AM UTC

mdellabitta wrote: post #2

While I can see the point of this article, it's being cast in a much more dramatic light than necessary. Phrases like "While Google is out to devalue the open source codebase as much as possible" seem hyperbolic to me.

I agree. While it does make some good, disturbing points, you can tell they had to stretch to make some of the other points.

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#37

Post by EGreg » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:51 AM UTC

If AOSP is open source and Google updates let's say the location services, why can't anyone start a similar project for AOSP and have it funded (like by Apache or Mozilla)?

It seems that the main problem is the gatekeepers who manufacture phones.

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#38

Post by cremnob » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:51 AM UTC

lnanek2 wrote: post #13

What's really annoying is when the Google apps start becoming worse to make Google more money. I never open the app store without wanting an app, but it constantly tries to sell me books and movies and stuff like that. They even have separate Google apps for reading and movies, so shoving it in the app store is just a money grab making my usage more difficult to shove some ads in my face. Were these apps open source…

This is an opportunity for Yahoo. The article mentions that OEMs can't leave because they're afraid of losing Google services, Yahoo can be that replacement. They've been making beautiful mobile apps lately and they have some very polished services. They are a pure play service provider who isn't trying to compete with the OEMs; they have no conflict of interest.

If you work at Yahoo, this is something you should run up the chain. A relationship with OEMs would solve their problems, and allow you to get a foothold in mobile that you haven't been able to before.

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#39

Post by fpgeek » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:52 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #4

The only real thing that seems "evil" is the requirement for OEMs to not manufacture _any_ devices compatible with non-Google forks. The rest of it seems pretty necessary in order to keep carriers and OEMs in line. A lesson Microsoft learned, and why Windows Phone started off by allowing the user to remove any pre-installed crap. If Google didn't do any of this, and was totally altruistic, Samsung and others would al…

In fact, the boundaries of the compatibility requirement are pretty fuzzy.

For instance, the Acer/Aliyun situation is more complicated than presented. The Aliyun app store was distributing pirated apps (including pirated Google apps): http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/09/15/aliyun-app-store-con...

It seems obvious that Acer would have wound up in hot water with Google over this somehow, though it is odd that Google decided to focus their complaint on compatibility (rather than on Aliyun's piracy).

On the other side of the coin, many Android OEMs have distributed (and still distribute, so far as I know) devices without Google apps for the Chinese market (including Samsung, ASUS, Huawei, and even Motorola [1]). So far as I can remember, these were always essentially the same as non-Chinese devices except that they came with a different ROM that didn't include Google Apps. Nevertheless, that means that there's some scope for making non-Google Android devices, we just don't know how far it goes. Maybe if the HTC/Amazon rumors turn out to be true, we'll find out more.

[1] Though I think Motorola's efforts were shut-down post-merger because of Google's China policies.

Re: Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

#40

Post by andrewflnr » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 2:52 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #35

Mikeb85 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source is most definitely winning in infrastructure, high performance computing, servers, etc... Ask IBM or Oracle if Linux is losing...

You're conflating the reasons though...would Linux be winning in those areas without big corporate $$$?

I was going to say, "well, most people aren't actually using a corporate-sponsored distro", but I guess the real question is whether Linux would have become the impressive piece of technology it is today without corporate backing, if there had never been anyone working on it full-time. Maybe FreeBSD would have taken it's place if Linus didn't have enough time to work on it. Either way, it's really hard for me to imagine a non-open system in this position of dominance.