The Ocean is Broken • Hacker News Board

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#21

Post by 300bps » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 4:55 PM UTC

3327 wrote: post #9

I saw some people comment on a thread similar to this yesterday called, "Sailor says pacific is lifeless form Japan onwards for 3k Miles". I am guessing it is the same gentleman in this article and this is the full article. Some comments there were skeptical and suggested they had been at sea and hadn't caught anything or had not "seen any whales or dolphins". Let me say that there are countless counter arguments but…

I am in favor of environmental causes but you seem to discount at least one possibility. The person could be either exaggerating or outright lying. People love to exaggerate problems. The other day a user told me that a particular synchronization froze for over 45 minutes doing nothing right in the middle of it. I sent her the timestamped log file that showed there was no pause in the synchronization and that the entire process took less than 15 minutes. This type of thing is very common.

In addition to commonly exaggerating problems, some people lie to further an agenda. Maybe an employee thinks their nephew deserves a shot at developing the company website so they become hypercritical of everything you do. Or maybe a sailor with subjective memories just doesn't like what fishing boats are doing.

In any case, anecdotal reports should be taken as a call for further study, not as a call to draw conclusions.

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#22

Post by 300bps » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 4:57 PM UTC

rurabe wrote: post #8

It's really really sad, and no less ironic, that in the midst of this government shutdown, particularly with the zealotry from the tea party about the evils of government, that a problem which so obviously needs addressing, and should naturally and probably only can be solved by governments, goes unaddressed like this. Surely we must all be able to agree on this. What is government for at all, if not to harness our c…

First of all, the shutdown ended so we are not in its "midst". Second of all, what does the US shutdown have to do with the waters of coastal Japan?

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#23

Post by Zancarius » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 4:58 PM UTC

grok2 wrote: post #11

It would have been great confirmation of all that he writes about to see some photos from his trip -- specially of the infamous garbage patch.

There is no such thing as the garbage patch[1]; any such pictures[2] you may have seen are of other areas that are certainly far more polluted (it doesn't change the tragedy of it or the disgusting nature of such things, but it does change the premise of the argument).

There is, however, a significant problem with regards to the micro-plastics and other such small particles floating about in great number. The problem is that no one knows how these are affecting the ecology of the oceans on a large scale[2].

[1] http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/how-big-gre...

[2] http://io9.com/5911969/lies-youve-been-told-about-the-pacifi...

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#24

Post by worldsayshi » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 5:00 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #19

jws wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't photograph the garbage patch in any meaningful way. It isn't visible. There are more fine plastic particles per cubic meter of water and you are more likely than normal to happen a cross a bit of floating plastic, but a picture doesn't tell the story. If you have seen pictures of solid garbage on the water, you are probably looking at a large bay in a metropolitan area, say Manila.

You're correct about the garbage patch that's typically talked about in the news, but this article mentions: > "In a lot of places we couldn't start our motor for fear of entangling the propeller in the mass of pieces of rope and cable. That's an unheard of situation, out in the ocean. > "On the bow, in the waters above Hawaii, you could see right down into the depths. I could see that the debris isn't just on the su…

All those mentions still probably talk about pieces of debris of which only single or a couple would fit on the same photograph.

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#25

Post by Zancarius » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 5:05 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #19

jws wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't photograph the garbage patch in any meaningful way. It isn't visible. There are more fine plastic particles per cubic meter of water and you are more likely than normal to happen a cross a bit of floating plastic, but a picture doesn't tell the story. If you have seen pictures of solid garbage on the water, you are probably looking at a large bay in a metropolitan area, say Manila.

You're correct about the garbage patch that's typically talked about in the news, but this article mentions: > "In a lot of places we couldn't start our motor for fear of entangling the propeller in the mass of pieces of rope and cable. That's an unheard of situation, out in the ocean. > "On the bow, in the waters above Hawaii, you could see right down into the depths. I could see that the debris isn't just on the su…

I believe the article is talking about ephemeral debris that was sent into the ocean from the 2011 tsunami. What will happen to it in the next 10-20 years is anyone's guess, but factory chimneys aren't something that get thrown overboard or stuffed into municipal landfills.

What this does demonstrate is how one natural disaster can spread signs of human influence and decay for thousands of miles, and it will likely take decades for this stuff to degrade or disperse.

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#26

Post by eruditely » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #17

rurabe wrote: post #8

It's really really sad, and no less ironic, that in the midst of this government shutdown, particularly with the zealotry from the tea party about the evils of government, that a problem which so obviously needs addressing, and should naturally and probably only can be solved by governments, goes unaddressed like this. Surely we must all be able to agree on this. What is government for at all, if not to harness our c…

It's interesting to see the statement that a problem like this can 'probably only be solved by governments' when governments so far have completely failed to solve it, and the proposed non-government solutions (such as removing the limitations on the liability of polluters, and allowing those whose health or livelihood has been injured by pollution to sue, potentially by class action) have never even been attempted.…

That insanity quote does not extend into probabilistic life. If we see tails tails tails, but we are reasonably sure what is behind the empirical result is a coin. We can flip a few more times and expext heads.

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#27

Post by eruditely » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #17

rurabe wrote: post #8

It's really really sad, and no less ironic, that in the midst of this government shutdown, particularly with the zealotry from the tea party about the evils of government, that a problem which so obviously needs addressing, and should naturally and probably only can be solved by governments, goes unaddressed like this. Surely we must all be able to agree on this. What is government for at all, if not to harness our c…

It's interesting to see the statement that a problem like this can 'probably only be solved by governments' when governments so far have completely failed to solve it, and the proposed non-government solutions (such as removing the limitations on the liability of polluters, and allowing those whose health or livelihood has been injured by pollution to sue, potentially by class action) have never even been attempted.…

That insanity quote does not extend into probabilistic life. If we see tails tails tails, but we are reasonably sure what is behind the empirical result is a coin. We can flip a few more times and expext heads.

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#28

Post by 3327 » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 5:27 PM UTC

300bps wrote: post #21

3327 wrote: post #9

I saw some people comment on a thread similar to this yesterday called, "Sailor says pacific is lifeless form Japan onwards for 3k Miles". I am guessing it is the same gentleman in this article and this is the full article. Some comments there were skeptical and suggested they had been at sea and hadn't caught anything or had not "seen any whales or dolphins". Let me say that there are countless counter arguments but…

I am in favor of environmental causes but you seem to discount at least one possibility. The person could be either exaggerating or outright lying. People love to exaggerate problems. The other day a user told me that a particular synchronization froze for over 45 minutes doing nothing right in the middle of it. I sent her the timestamped log file that showed there was no pause in the synchronization and that the ent…

I agree. This is a possibility that should not be discounted as it is exceptionally common.

>>In any case, anecdotal reports should be taken as a call for further study, not as a call to draw conclusions.

Precisely.

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#29

Post by SeanDav » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 5:42 PM UTC

cjensen wrote: post #12

This is nonsense. A classic case of mistaking an anecdote for data. There's lots of year-to-year variation in currents which affect life in the ocean. In turn, the birds which depend on seafood vary tremendously. For example, two years ago Pelagic Cormorants had tremendous problems with their food source off of Northern California. So the Cormorants moved around seeking food. Santa Clara County, which normally goes y…

or it may be the absolute truth - which you are dismissing as anecdotal.

In either case it is worth keeping an open mind, because if it is true, then we are in serious trouble. Sticking your head in the sand and saying "no data, no data" is not useful even if at the end of the day you are correct. When the consequences of being right or wrong (depending on your point of view) are so dire, it is worth investigating further and certainly not dismissing out of hand.

Re: The Ocean is Broken

#30

Post by rquantz » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 5:44 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #17

rurabe wrote: post #8

It's really really sad, and no less ironic, that in the midst of this government shutdown, particularly with the zealotry from the tea party about the evils of government, that a problem which so obviously needs addressing, and should naturally and probably only can be solved by governments, goes unaddressed like this. Surely we must all be able to agree on this. What is government for at all, if not to harness our c…

It's interesting to see the statement that a problem like this can 'probably only be solved by governments' when governments so far have completely failed to solve it, and the proposed non-government solutions (such as removing the limitations on the liability of polluters, and allowing those whose health or livelihood has been injured by pollution to sue, potentially by class action) have never even been attempted.…

the proposed non-government solutions (such as removing the limitations on the liability of polluters, and allowing those whose health or livelihood has been injured by pollution to sue, potentially by class action) have never even been attempted.

The mistake you're making here is to think that this is a non-governmental solution. Yes, it is law that is preventing this solution from being enacted, but it is in the context of government that it could happen at all: government runs the courts and forces the loser of a suit to pay the winner.

Your argument is akin to the people who shout "keep your government hands off my medicare," or the politicians who insist that government can't do anything right, and to prove it they get into office and do everything wrong.

Yes, government in America is broken and ineffectual. It will only be fixed when we as a people decide that it's time for a government that responds to the needs of the people rather than only the wealthy; when we decide to stop being afraid and end the police state we're living in, and replace it with a government that works. Yes every government has its problems, but not all of them are as broken and destructive as ours. Saying government can't solve problems is part of the problem -- it keeps us from focusing our efforts on the kind of collective action that could actually make a difference.

What say you, brothers? Who is with me?

[crickets]