Have young people in Japan stopped having sex? • Hacker News Board

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#161

Post by m_mueller » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

steven2012 wrote: post #127

m_mueller wrote: post #14

The subject is interesting, especially because I'm married to a Japanese - but man do I hate articles that go round and round like this one. Here, have a little bit of a sociological hypothesis - but let's not go too deep for your little brains shall we? Here, have a little bit of anecdotal evidence instead. Enough of that? Alright, let's start over again. [...] Oh I'm outa time, let's end the article now, kthxbye. I…

What do you mean using anecdotal evidence instead? The author cites data and surveys, which clearly show the problem. "Japan already has one of the world's lowest birth rates. Its population of 126 million, which has been shrinking for the past decade, is projected to plunge a further one-third by 2060." "The number of single people has reached a record high. A survey in 2011 found that 61% of unmarried men and 49% o…

That would be fine if the article was called "Japanese people don't start enough families" - however, this wouldn't be an interesting headline, since it's years old news and most informed people know this already[1]. But it isn't, is it? It's asking the question why. I can ask such questions as well, but if I'm going to write an article about it, I'd hope to come up with some analysis to try to answer it - and this is exactly where the journalist got lazy and just cobbled up whatever anecdotes he can attribute to actual Japanese people saying them, cause, you know, they must be at the source of this, right?

[1] Although I'm not yet sure whether more babies is actually what Japan needs right now - looking at their population density, going easy on the baby making might be ok for a while, if there is a plan in place on how to turn it around once the population has fallen to more sustainable levels (and also how to pay for everyone's pensions in the meantime).

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#162

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:16 PM UTC

DasIch wrote: post #44

netcan wrote: post #31

There is something about Japan that really brings home the meaning of 'foreign' to me. I think that being the first rich, advanced large country that isn't western is the reason. On paper, they have a similar relationship with money, technology, their religion and traditional culture. I can't explain the strangeness away with those differences. When I read something like this about some trend or supposed cultural pat…

Actually this phenomenon isn't that foreign. Less children being born, a falling number of "serious" relationships etc. are all things that can be observed in any technologically advanced society. Japan is just an extreme case because their current set of values doesn't deviate as much from more traditional values, which escalates the problem. Germany is actually somewhat similiar to Japan when it comes to these issu…

None of my childres/nieces/nephews are married or have childred. They are all approaching their 30s. Something is going on.

In a previous generation ALL would be married, ALL would have at least one child.

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#163

Post by pcurve » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:17 PM UTC

alinajaf wrote: post #104

Very interesting article, multiple points to make: If living and being in Japan has taught me anything, it's that generalising from anecdote is not a good idea. Case in point, if you visit an outlet mall a few miles outside of central Sendai on a weekend, you'd have a lot of trouble convincing anyone that Japanese people aren't making enough babies. It was very, very difficult to spot single people, or even couples w…

I agree generalizing is not a good idea, but a single person wouldn't necessarily hang out at an outlet mall by himself either. (or spend a lot of time outside for that matter)

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#164

Post by guard-of-terra » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:23 PM UTC

novalis78 wrote: post #56

randomafrican wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more an imbalance between social expectations and modern living. More conservative societies see a steeper decline in birthrate as women participation in the workforce increases. That's why France has one of the highest birthrate in Europe for instance.

I disagree, I think the opposite is the case. American Caucasians have a higher fertility rate than almost all Western Europeans; birth rates in France typically include recent immigrant fertility rates which are significantly higher. The arguments to avoid children are similar to the Japanese: independence, more money for consumption, etc Disclaimer: I grew up in Germany/Austria and find the topic of Europeqn demogr…

American Caucasians' fertility rate is steadily declining. France has high birth rate for native French too. I'm not sure which one is bigger at the moment.

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#165

Post by guard-of-terra » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:30 PM UTC

camus2 wrote: post #100

novalis78 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, I think the opposite is the case. American Caucasians have a higher fertility rate than almost all Western Europeans; birth rates in France typically include recent immigrant fertility rates which are significantly higher. The arguments to avoid children are similar to the Japanese: independence, more money for consumption, etc Disclaimer: I grew up in Germany/Austria and find the topic of Europeqn demogr…

Yeah but it's because you get a lot of welfare when you have babies in France,especially when you have 3 or more. Stop giving these freebies and fertility rates will drop in no time. The question is , should we encourage it? in the long run ,it doesnt make sense. We often hear on the radio here how Germans dont make babies anymore and it will doom Germany. I dont think so, one country doesnt need perpetual population…

"doesnt need perpetual population growth" It's no longer about growth, it's about decline now.

Can a country with perpetually declining and aging population survive? In what form?

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#166

Post by muraiki » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #24

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the social conservative movement is the largest movement in the US which questions the desirability of Capitalism on an economic level (and the critiques are really interesting) Care to point them out?

John Medaille has written extensively on the subject. His book "Towards a Truly Free Market" is worth reading. A lot of it boils down to the critiques of market capitalism by Hilaire Belloc and Gilbert Chesterton and how these have largely continued within the conservative Catholic movement, as well as parts of the Orthodox and conservative Protestant communities as well. I am a Heathen and I worship Odin, Thorr, and…

People who want to know a bit more about the particulars of this economic thought should check out Distributivism. While I don't know much about it, it seems like the idea of reconciling private property ownership with the spread of the means of production to all people goes well with open source / maker movement ideas.

"According to distributists, property ownership is a fundamental right and the means of production should be spread as widely as possible rather than being centralized under the control of the state (state socialism) or of accomplished individuals (laissez-faire capitalism). Distributism therefore advocates a society marked by widespread property ownership and, according to co-operative economist Race Mathews, maintains that such a system is key to bringing about a just social order.

Distributism has often been described in opposition to both socialism and capitalism, which distributists see as equally flawed and exploitative."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributivism

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#167

Post by hannibal5 » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:35 PM UTC

veidr wrote: post #73

This is a stupid article, and young people in Japan have not stopped having sex. What westerners might call 'casual sex' -- sex without the framework of a relationships that implies various other promieses/committments -- is normal, and also not likely to be spoken about frankly, especially to a reporter, and much less a British one. Sometimes I'll witness a young woman asked about it at a social gathering (as people…

This is not stupid article. The journalist in question used these few people just to add human interest in a story full of statistics.

1. Increasing number of Japanese have just casual sex.

2. Increasing number of Japanese don't have sex (with other human) at all.

There is statistical data from several surveys backing this up.

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#168

Post by mattchew » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:36 PM UTC

emiliobumachar wrote: post #71

randomafrican wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not Pandas. Ressource depletion is only a problem if our ressource consumption doesnt evolve. And it will evolve.

True enough, but such evolution, in the purely darwinian sense of the word, may involve a lot of war and atrocities. In the worst case, it could bring the bloody end of civilization as we know it. I agree that society and technology could evolve us through a much more desirable path. But the more time we can buy for that to happen, the better.

> I agree that society and technology could evolve us through a much more desirable path. But the more time we can buy for that to happen, the better.

I would inflect this differently. An open and free society is much more likely to figure out a desirable path for the future than one steered by central authority.

(In fact, it is the accumulation of thousands or millions of small improvements that will, in retrospect, be seen as a desirable path.)

Desiring "extra" conservation of the resources that today seem most limited, might not necessarily be incompatible with an open and unplanned society. But it usually is.

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#169

Post by pcurve » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:40 PM UTC

squirejons wrote: post #90

ever notice how the corporate media is always trying get more people into the developed nations? Mass immigration! More people! More People! More Babies! MOAR! MOAR! This baby dearth, combined with the ability of the japanese to keep their elites from increasing mass immigration, means less supply of labor, which means higher wage (remember supply and demand? It applies to labor, too). That means that the corporation…

Japan hasn't quite embraced foreign immigration the way many of its European counterparts have. It's an interesting demographic and economics experiments whose results we shall find out in coming 30-50 years.

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that the low-birth rate trend will reverse at some point. A country with 1.2 birth rate will cease to exist in 200 years, and I just don't see that happening.

Re: Have young people in Japan stopped having sex?

#170

Post by muraiki » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 2:40 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #128

raverbashing wrote: post #28

In the midst of all, this seems to be one of the best parts of it: "Tomita says a woman's chances of promotion in Japan stop dead as soon as she marries. "The bosses assume you will get pregnant." Once a woman does have a child, she adds, the long, inflexible hours become unmanageable. "You have to resign. You end up being a housewife with no independent income. It's not an option for women like me." Great, so if a w…

> from the exorbitant costs of buying property in Japan Well they are living on an island. You can't grow your population forever in a finite space without increased competition.

I recall reading an article saying that there is actually quite a lot of undeveloped / rural land in Japan, but people tend to live in the largest cities because large businesses want to be close to the areas of greatest political influence.