Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For • Hacker News Board

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#41

Post by 001sky » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 12:53 PM UTC

The expression was popularized by the best-selling novel “Pay It Forward” ... The protagonist does three good deeds and asks the beneficiaries to do three good deeds and so on.

The origins of this term are somewhat different, and worth noting. The normal mode of reciporocity is to 'pay it back'. However, there are certain times when this would be physically impossible. This is the origin of 'pay it forward'. It results from the humble notion: I can never pay it back, so I will pay it forward. It has nothing to do with scaling (3x), nor contingency (i did this for you, now you do this...etc). It is a response to an actual act of kindness or generosity that precisely lacks such a contingency (most usually because you will never interact with the person that helped you out, ever again). It would have been nice for the NY Times piece to note this correctly! Its just too bad that the actual understanding of the term could not be promulgated through what is otherwise a good piece (likely to be widely read).

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#42

Post by oskarth » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 1:03 PM UTC

001sky wrote: post #41

The expression was popularized by the best-selling novel “Pay It Forward” ... The protagonist does three good deeds and asks the beneficiaries to do three good deeds and so on. The origins of this term are somewhat different, and worth noting. The normal mode of reciporocity is to 'pay it back'. However, there are certain times when this would be physically impossible. This is the origin of 'pay it forward'. It resul…

Great comment, very interesting. Have you considered emailing the author/editor? Genuine corrections have a decent chance of being included.

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#43

Post by johnyello » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 1:06 PM UTC

jbrooksuk wrote: post #25

Similar story here in the UK. I was paying for my McDonalds at the drive-thru when for whatever reason I looked in my mirror and saw a young girl sat crying in her car looking deeply depressed. I asked if I could pay whatever her meal, did so, picked mine up and looking in the mirror I could see a genuine smile appear. I hope that if I cheered her up for even 2 seconds, she can see whatever happened to make her cry i…

Perhaps she was crying because she was about to have to eat a McDonald's?

Seriously, why the fuck would someone education enough to be on HN be eating that fast food crap? If you really want a burger in the UK, go to Byrons.

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#44

Post by cstejerean » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 1:12 PM UTC

001sky wrote: post #41

The expression was popularized by the best-selling novel “Pay It Forward” ... The protagonist does three good deeds and asks the beneficiaries to do three good deeds and so on. The origins of this term are somewhat different, and worth noting. The normal mode of reciporocity is to 'pay it back'. However, there are certain times when this would be physically impossible. This is the origin of 'pay it forward'. It resul…

"While confusing in the context of paying for the car behind you in a drive-through, “pay it forward” means to repay a kindness by being kind to someone else rather than the person who was kind to you."

The article didn't claim it had anything to do with 3x. That was simply explaining the version in the movie, which did in fact popularize the term.

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#45

Post by bsenftner » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 1:14 PM UTC

I suspect a carefully coordinated PR campaign for Chick-fil-A, as I've noticed uncharacteristically, frequent positive references to them in unrelated news items lately. I consume a lot of news, and noticing "fake" planted positive references in tangentially related articles is par for the course for any company that stepped in deep shit like they did. I suspect at least one of these positive comments here to be a plant as well. If you think this is paranoid, you don't know how our world works.

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#46

Post by _red » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 1:20 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #34

hxa7241 wrote: post #30

This is quite pointless because it essentially cancels out. To get a cooperative structure you have to give away surplus -- that is, people with more have to give it to people with less. Yes, redistribution ! That seems a dirty idea in a substantial part of USA politics. So 'pay it forward' chains are a peculiar thing: they summon the feeling of cooperation, in an acceptable way, without actually being effectively co…

The chains are peculiar yes, but not that peculiar: It's strongly ingrained in us to return favours, to the point that giving someone something is a brutally effective way of exploiting them by later asking for a bigger favour back (e.g. consider Hare Krishna, that tended to use flowers for this purpose). The effect is so strong that we often try to prevent receiving favours because we don't want to become indebted.…

Quite right. In fact the opposite works - and its known as the Ben Franklin Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect).

The idea is that if I ask a favor of you (to loan me a book, in Ben's case) - you are more likely to become friendly to me in the future.

Its a curious extension of what you mentioned above, by asking you for a favor - which you then grant - you gain a sort of psychological 'credit' over me (I owe you). In fact, because you implicitly recognize that I'm voluntarily offering to place myself in your debt, you are happy to oblige since you recognize the subtle power relationship at work.

I learned about this from a lawyer friend who claims he uses it all the time. If there is someone professionally he want to get to know, he will call them and ask them for a small favor (ie. I can't make the social gala party tonight, could you please take my check with you and drop it off to pay for my yearly dues...etc).

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#47

Post by OmleteDuFromage » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 1:20 PM UTC

SeanDav wrote: post #38

hxa7241 wrote: post #30

This is quite pointless because it essentially cancels out. To get a cooperative structure you have to give away surplus -- that is, people with more have to give it to people with less. Yes, redistribution ! That seems a dirty idea in a substantial part of USA politics. So 'pay it forward' chains are a peculiar thing: they summon the feeling of cooperation, in an acceptable way, without actually being effectively co…

Could not disagree more with you. It is far from pointless. First of all the next person in line feels good, because a stranger helped them with no underhanded motives. Then there is a high chance they will pass it on, getting a second dose of feeling good, because most people feel good about helping others. That's a double dose of feeling good. I don't see what is being cancelled out here.

Ok then how about I give you $10.000 and you give it back to me. I'll feel good about it. Then you feel good about getting 10K. Then you feel good about helping me. Then I feel good about getting 10K. And now everyone's feeling good. Kumbaya!

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#48

Post by drcode » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 1:24 PM UTC

Of course, the only reason this works is that it is not socially acceptable to break the chain in this circumstance. For instance, if there was a tip/charity jar (and I'm guessing there isn't in the cases this works) I would simply put my surplus into the tip jar and break the chain, because I find this idea annoying. If there is no tip jar, I would have no choice but to continue the chain.

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#49

Post by drcode » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 1:27 PM UTC

bsenftner wrote: post #45

I suspect a carefully coordinated PR campaign for Chick-fil-A, as I've noticed uncharacteristically, frequent positive references to them in unrelated news items lately. I consume a lot of news, and noticing "fake" planted positive references in tangentially related articles is par for the course for any company that stepped in deep shit like they did. I suspect at least one of these positive comments here to be a pl…

Probably true, except for the part about chicfila staff trolling HN.

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#50

Post by 001sky » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 1:28 PM UTC

johnyello wrote: post #43

jbrooksuk wrote: post #25

Similar story here in the UK. I was paying for my McDonalds at the drive-thru when for whatever reason I looked in my mirror and saw a young girl sat crying in her car looking deeply depressed. I asked if I could pay whatever her meal, did so, picked mine up and looking in the mirror I could see a genuine smile appear. I hope that if I cheered her up for even 2 seconds, she can see whatever happened to make her cry i…

Perhaps she was crying because she was about to have to eat a McDonald's? Seriously, why the fuck would someone education enough to be on HN be eating that fast food crap? If you really want a burger in the UK, go to Byrons.

why the fuck would someone education enough to be on HN be eating that fast food crap

Have you ever seen the food at a startup/hack-athon/all-nighter-in-the office? There is a time and a place for junk-food ! And doing stressful things in a hurry whilst maintaining high-levels of concentration is one of the physiological test-pieces for high caloric density nutrtion consumption. Its a strategy rooted in science, not gluttony. Fat, salt, sugar will impact your bio-chemistry and manage stress hormones (thus increasing concentration and performance). The "stupid" use of fast food is merely to engage in chronic, long-term consumption outside of such windows of appropriate use.