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Devops needs feminism

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Re: Devops needs feminism

#31
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that? > If we want to actually solve this problem, we need to go all the way to the beginning: middle school, where girls mysteriously start losing interest in technical fields. What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what…

"> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that?" Well, the article itself: Promoting equality in your organization If you start actively working to attack inequality in your organization, I guarantee you’ll realize you were already a feminist. When your heart’s in the right place and you’re consta…

Social pressures both to differentiate and conform to a particular sub-group during adolescence, and the kinds of groups that girls and boys tend to form. At least in part.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm only replying to the second question. In the US at least, it seems (and at one point I might have been able to point to the studies) that interest in STEM drops off[1] for female students around middle school, same for minority students. Many efforts at outreach, then, have tried to focus on introducing extracurricular academic programs at those students (often by targetting schools with higher female or minority…

You know what's a guaranteed method for killing a 12 year old's interest in a subject? Have a 40 year old tell them how cool it is.

Show, don't tell. Provide an opportunity, guide them through solving interesting problems, set up the problems in ways that can appeal to them: competitions like FIRST Robotics; real world connections like rudimentary or introductory mechanical and electrical engineering and how it can solve their problems.

I can tell my functional programming hating program lead all day that it's great and very applicable to what we do, or I can write up a program we've been needing for months in two days and 200 clear lines versus the 2000 line C# version that's still got bugs in it.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#33
post #4

I can't express how infuriating I find the "we just need to treat everyone equally, that's it!" type of comments, and these analogies help me understand why. It's like saying "we just need to write maintainable modular code, that's it!"

I agree, except I didn't see much "actionable" content here. A blog post rarely just says "write modular code", it tells you how.

Let's say I'm the boss at a startup with around 20 employees, but only four women. How do I fix that?

Re: Devops needs feminism

#34
post #10
post #7

Lots of human groups are underrepresented in technology (africans, older people, latinos etc). Why are feminists the only ones that always make it to the frontpage (even superficial pieces like this one)?

Why do people instantly put up ideological blinders at the first mention of feminism in response to an interesting article? I mean, do you find anything at all objectionable in what it says? Please share! Or a subtlety that it leaves out? Totally! I agree with you that racial issues are underemphasized in technical communities, and in the same way we should use feminism as a framework for achieving the organizational…

I find it objectionable that blindly applying feminist recipes in IT will have any effect. Feminism is not a framework but a set of ideologies, and even if we assume it is, applying it out of context, it is just stupid (e.g. a company claiming it is 'pro choice' in order to attract women). Most IT jobs are in countries where feminism already works for decades. Clearly you need something more than feminism to achieve total equality.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#35
post #4

I can't express how infuriating I find the "we just need to treat everyone equally, that's it!" type of comments, and these analogies help me understand why. It's like saying "we just need to write maintainable modular code, that's it!"

I agree, except I didn't see much "actionable" content here. A blog post rarely just says "write modular code", it tells you how. Let's say I'm the boss at a startup with around 20 employees, but only four women. How do I fix that?

Sometimes you can't, quotas aren't a useful solution. Check your recruiting approach. Are you recruiting from male dominated events? Are there more balanced forums or even female dominated forums you can also recruit from but haven't yet? Do you read the name of all applicants with their resumes? Try sorting applications without knowing the name, gender, race and see if perhaps you had an unintended bias in how you filtered them. Check your behavior. Do your female engineers end up as project tech writers and configuration managers more often than the men? Is that where they want to be or did you just happen to put them there? If so, why? Check the behavior of your staff, is there a guy who keeps hitting on the female staff or a particular person? I've seen this happen and several women leave before management acknowledged that his behavior really was a problem.

In the end, your 4:1 ratio may be fine, you may have hired the appropriate people for the position and there's no reason to fret. Same with ratios for other demographics. But recognizing that intended or unintended biases can be at play is important if we want to change STEM at large.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#36
The biggest issue I've come to see in this industry is the denial that there's even an issue. That's what makes sexism so hard to address.

You'll find no shortage of those who don't experience that marginalization deny its existence. Meanwhile, those who do experience it and try to share how they experience it are ignored or talked over.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#37
post #4

I can't express how infuriating I find the "we just need to treat everyone equally, that's it!" type of comments, and these analogies help me understand why. It's like saying "we just need to write maintainable modular code, that's it!"

I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. After all, if men would just treat women equally, then women would represent half the workforce in those fields, right? Women are underrepresented in applications to engineering school . Are adults who are already in the workforce responsible for that? Do high school girl…

I don't think anyone's saying men are to blame - this is a systematic problem. The important thing is not to blame someone, but to _fix it_. This post offers insight into the problem so people have a better shot at _fixing it_. So we can fight about who's evil or exactly what volume is ideal for talking about the problem, or we can

Just.

Fix.

It.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#38
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. After all, if men would just treat women equally, then women would represent half the workforce in those fields, right? Women are underrepresented in applications to engineering school . Are adults who are already in the workforce responsible for that? Do high school girl…

I don't think anyone's saying men are to blame - this is a systematic problem. The important thing is not to blame someone, but to _fix it_. This post offers insight into the problem so people have a better shot at _fixing it_. So we can fight about who's evil or exactly what volume is ideal for talking about the problem, or we can Just. Fix. It.

I don't like doing this, but "systematic" when you mean "systemic" is one of my pet peeves. Systematic things are deliberate, if the bias is intentionally done then it could be systematic. In this case, it's not clear that anyone is trying to drive women from the field so it's systemic, a property of the system, or culture in this case.

To discuss your comment, I didn't feel that the post brought any particular insight to fixing it, but rather was trying to encourage discussion. Sadly this post seems to have been flagged and is now buried on this discussion site. This problem is not one that we have a handle on yet, and discussion/analysis is key to determining why it exists. Of course, we can't discuss forever, at some point organizations and individuals need to act, experiment with different things and rectify the problems they can (and hopefully not shift them to darker corners).

Re: Devops needs feminism

#39
post #14

[deleted]

If "feminism" is really about equality then why on earth is it named after one sex? This seems a little odd to me. Why not merely name it "humanism" and call it a day?

It' focused on inequality along a particular axis and inherits from a historical tradition which has focused mainly on the disadvantages faced by one side of that axis.

By way of analogy, there are tools to optimize loops during compliation. This is part of the broader goal of optimizing software, but to call them simply "optimizers" and call it a day would be to pointlessly forfeit semantic bandwidth. Fixing problems requires getting specific. And yes, sometimes loops don't need optimization, and of course there are other things to take care of, but there's still value in talking about the specifics.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#40
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps so, but there is nothing people working in the field can do about that. If women are a minority because they are unwilling to join a field where they are a minority, then nothing that men do to change their behavior, attitude, or whatever else will solve the problem. I also have some doubts about this being the sole issue. As an undergrad, I watched my school work hard to try to play up the fact that there we…

> Perhaps so, but there is nothing people working in the field can do about that. If women are a minority because they are unwilling to join a field where they are a minority, then nothing that men do to change their behavior, attitude, or whatever else will solve the problem. Sure they can. They can simply hire more women. Once the gender ratio is sorted out, the new equilibrium will be self-sustaining.

> Sure they can. They can simply hire more women.

You're smart enough to know it's not that simple; even if one were willing to "just do it" it's not clear the unintended consequences would not result in a net-negative effect on women in engineering.

Fundamentally, if the source funnel is unbalanced, and you assume that there is a scalar "skill" quantity that is the economic factor of production employers actually desire, then it is mathematically impossible to hire-toward-parity without having a lower standard for hiring from the less-represented pool [0].

If you accept that ratio-correcting hiring mathematically necessitates lower standards for women then you need to answer some thorny economic questions.

Will the women whose skill is below the minimum skill of the men in your quota system be paid the same as the men (all of whom by mathematical necessity, will be more skilled)?. If they are paid the same as the men, it is a subsidy paid by the employer, the employer's customers, and the disemployed men who otherwise would have been hired but-for the quota. It's not clear to me that they bear any culpability for the social problem, or that the economic costs of this subsidy are sufficiently small not to have significant negative effects on those businesses. I know, I know: boo hoo, those poor businesses won't have two golden swimming pools of money, just one. But the reality is that the margins most businesses have between the cost of employment and the productivity of that employment is not, for most companies, rich Google-y numbers like 50%. If the margins are more like 10% it is entirely credible to me that such a subsidy will drive various arms of the business from ROI-positive to ROI-negative (or at least, ROI below just investing that cash in stocks). And then all those jobs we were planning to give to women will no longer exist.

If, on the other hand, the lower-skill women are paid sufficiently less than the men to balance the opportunity cost borne by the employer (for not being able to hire everyone above a minimum skill level) then the women need to be paid less than an open market wage (i.e. less than their skills would justify without a quota system, because the quota system is costing the employer lost productivity in men they would otherwise hire). So now the women are paying for the parity-seeking hiring. This will exacerbate the already high level of concern about fairness in compensation and will provide an additional disincentive for women to join this work force. Never mind that it seems perverse to have the women pay the employers for the privilege of working in a quota system.

Let me make a defensive statement lest it seem I am suggesting that women are less skilled than men: I am emphatically not. I'm saying that if you take the best five of 30 people and the best five of 100 people, the latter group will, with significant statistical regularity, be more skilled.

So what to do if ratio-correcting hire is DOA? It seems that there's an easier solution that has its roots in a long history of women conquering other obstacles; a generation of high-school aged women need to decide, en masse, that they will join engineering departments as a group and that they will stick to it with mutual support. This is direct action by the people whose well-being we are trying to improve, can be done without getting permission or cooperation from anyone outside that group, and solves the "boys' club" problem on day 1 of freshman year classes (because the club will be, by construction, full of women as well). I even have a slogan ready for them: "We're here, we're engineers, get used to it." I realize that coordinating this kind of movement is hard, but it is run-of-the-mill political and social organizing, and it seems to me like something that can actually work (as opposed to solutions that attack the symptoms of a skewed sourcing funnel).

[0] Proof sketch (hand-waving law-of-large numbers arguments, and assuming women's skills are distributed identically to men's):

1) If you reject quotas and hire simply for skill >= min_skill, then you will find more men meeting that criterion because there are men in the source funnel. So fixed-skill cutoffs are out.

2) If you have quotas (say 1 woman for every 1 man) then you can't hire everyone >= min_skill; you will instead hire the best among the people >= min_skill. The men will be pulled from a larger pool, and taking the best from a larger pool will result on average in a higher minimum skill level. So simply by taking the best N of the women and the best N of the men, the source funnel imbalance forces you to have lower standards for women

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