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Devops needs feminism

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Re: Devops needs feminism

#11
post #2

The current title on HN of "Feminism is to equality as metrics are to performance" is far more interesting than the title at the blog of "Devops needs feminism", but it's never really elucidated.

The original title was indeed interesting. I expected a different case to be made, though - that much like metrics can be necessary to improve performance, feminism can be necessary to improve equality, but in both cases it's possible to focus too much on the means and not enough on the end. I'm not entirely sure how much I'd have agreed with such a case, but it's an interesting lens.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#12
Yeah, but people-based metrics are subjective, even if they have hard numbers stuck in there. That's the problem.

The mistake here is viewing the entire system as simple, instead of emergent. Emergent systems are not usefully measured by simplistic top-down metrics.

You have one piece of code, yep, you set up some measurements and have fun with it. You have a thousand programs, running across a hundred different platforms? The idea that you can determine cause and effect by a simple top-down metric is a problem in itself. Yes, you may be able to determine that overall the system is not working as you would like it to be, and you may certainly decide that some kind of action is required, but that gives you no clue whatsoever what the required changes would be! In fact, by looking from the top-down in an aggregate fashion, it's even arguable whether or not your metric is the one to be optimized!

That's the difference between complex systems and simple systems. Stop over-simplifying. We all might be able to agree that some aggregate statistic is out of whack. Maybe. But that's a freaking long way from actually knowing anything about the problem or what to start doing to address it. Instead, we wrap it all up like that answer is straightforward, wave our arms around, get all emotional, and demand action. This is not a recipe for success, whether in complex systems of programs or complex systems of people.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#13
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. After all, if men would just treat women equally, then women would represent half the workforce in those fields, right? Women are underrepresented in applications to engineering school . Are adults who are already in the workforce responsible for that? Do high school girl…

> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that? > If we want to actually solve this problem, we need to go all the way to the beginning: middle school, where girls mysteriously start losing interest in technical fields. What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what…

"> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields.

Who's saying that?"

Well, the article itself:

  Promoting equality in your organization

  If you start actively working to attack inequality in your organization, I guarantee you’ll realize you were already a feminist.

  When your heart’s in the right place and you’re constantly examining your own actions and your organization’s, you start to notice bias and prejudice in more and more places. Most disturbingly, you notice it in yourself.
The implication in all of this is that there is inequality in our field that is due to our behavior i.e. the behavior of adults in the workforce. It is simply assumed that if we promote equality in our profession, and make it a team effort, then we will get equality.

"What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what action in that particular venue?"

I did not claim to have a solution, I was just pointing out where the problem lies. At some point in a girl's life, long before she is even thinking about college, something happens to undermine her interest in science and math. Years down the road, she winds up majoring in something that is not engineering or computer science, and fails to acquire the technical skills needed for a career in such fields by any other means. Obviously this is not something that all girls experience, but to a large extent it is the reason that engineering schools have so few women and so many men.

Maybe it is something girls are seeing on TV. Maybe it is something they are reading on the Internet. It is pretty clear that a young teenager is not seeing whatever prejudice exists in the workplace (how often do middle schoolers wander into your office?).

"What's mysterious about it? What expectations do you have that this observation runs counter to?"

Absent some reason to think otherwise, why would anyone assume that girls who have a talent and interest in math before a certain age would suddenly abandon their interest upon reaching that age? If puberty is the answer, why does it not happen to boys? For that matter, why does it seem to happen to a different degree in our country than in others?

Re: Devops needs feminism

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. After all, if men would just treat women equally, then women would represent half the workforce in those fields, right? Women are underrepresented in applications to engineering school . Are adults who are already in the workforce responsible for that? Do high school girl…

> Do high school girls somehow sense the "hostile environment" in engineering schools before they spend a single day there? Quite possibly, potentially in cultural portrayals of what goes on there. This isn't to say that necessarily is the cause, but you've by no means clearly demonstrated the lack of causal relationship you seem to think you have.

I think there is a difference between what girls are being told (by entertainment, by teachers, by parents, etc.) happens in engineering schools and what actually happens. The real point is that we can bend over backwards to fix whatever prejudices women encounter in engineering schools or as professional engineers and still accomplish nothing in terms of the disproportionate representation of women in our field.

In other words, if the problem is the environment within an engineering school, we should expect the trend to be a sudden, sharp change in female representation at the end of the first semester of the first year of college. Instead, we see poor representation in applications to engineering programs. I think that suggests the problem is earlier, and my own experience in engineering schools has been exactly that (my undergrad EE class had no women at all; in grad school, the vast majority of women I met were foreign, which might suggest something about our own culture versus others).

Re: Devops needs feminism

#16
post #4

I can't express how infuriating I find the "we just need to treat everyone equally, that's it!" type of comments, and these analogies help me understand why. It's like saying "we just need to write maintainable modular code, that's it!"

I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. After all, if men would just treat women equally, then women would represent half the workforce in those fields, right? Women are underrepresented in applications to engineering school . Are adults who are already in the workforce responsible for that? Do high school girl…

> Do high school girls somehow sense the "hostile environment" in engineering schools before they spend a single day there?

My wife, who has a solid head for mathematics but majored in German once explained to me why she didn't go into engineering: 1) because she didn't want to be surrounded by dudes all day; 2) because she didn't want to enter a field where she wouldn't have women bosses and mentors.

So if you're a high-school girl doing even a minimal bit of career planning, yes, of course you take into account the fact hat you'll be a minority in your field if you go into engineering, with all of the career hurdles that being a minority in any field entails.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#17
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. After all, if men would just treat women equally, then women would represent half the workforce in those fields, right? Women are underrepresented in applications to engineering school . Are adults who are already in the workforce responsible for that? Do high school girl…

> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that? > If we want to actually solve this problem, we need to go all the way to the beginning: middle school, where girls mysteriously start losing interest in technical fields. What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what…

I'm only replying to the second question. In the US at least, it seems (and at one point I might have been able to point to the studies) that interest in STEM drops off[1] for female students around middle school, same for minority students. Many efforts at outreach, then, have tried to focus on introducing extracurricular academic programs at those students (often by targetting schools with higher female or minority populations) in an effort to cultivate their interest and maintain it through high school, in the hopes that it can increase the number participating in STEM in college and, later, the workforce.

At this point, however, I don't know what measurable impact those programs have had, I should probably talk to the folks I know that are still participating in the programs at a level where they monitor the trends.

Regarding who: Anyone working in STEM with the patience to deal with 12 year olds. Volunteer with FIRST Robotics teams or other after school or summer programs. Female and minority volunteers, in particular, as knowing that there are female and minority STEM workers isn't the same as knowing female and minority STEM workers, it can make a huge difference for kids.

[1] EDIT: It may not be a drop off. It's been too long since I was involved with this, but perhaps instead of them losing interest it's that they don't develop the interest at this point?

Re: Devops needs feminism

#18
The author doesn't seem to know much about feminism (self-admitted); he seems to be using the first and best definitions he can find, find that that definition/decription resonates with him, and then tries to sell it. So anyone who believes in equality (and isn't an asshole) is a feminist. Okay. Then I'll similarly assert that everyone who believes in equal opportunity is a communist, that everyone who believes in freedom is a capitalist, etc. Now, everyone is at least superficially acquainted with these ideologies, so they won't simply take such assertions at face value, even if I say that 'there are many definitions and this is just my definition'. To assert that an ideology (or school of thought, or what have you) is about this and that, a handy 'definition' is not enough for me, personally. One should perhaps make an assessment based on what it's members do and say, such as bloggers, academics, etc.. Or restrict oneself to a particular wave of feminism. At least a more comprehensive description and/or analysis is in order if you want to correct others, than to simply cite a single definition from a single Wiki. That is just my opinion, OP.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#19
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that? > If we want to actually solve this problem, we need to go all the way to the beginning: middle school, where girls mysteriously start losing interest in technical fields. What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what…

"> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that?" Well, the article itself: Promoting equality in your organization If you start actively working to attack inequality in your organization, I guarantee you’ll realize you were already a feminist. When your heart’s in the right place and you’re consta…

> the behavior of adults in the workforce

Not the same as "the men in the workforce", agreed?

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