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The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

newsweek.com

11–20 of 35 posts

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#11

A good piece. I have a serious question for people smarter than me about the following: -- "Then there was the 1997 East Asian crisis, during the depths of which Paul Krugman wrote in a Fortune cover essay, "Never in the course of economic events—not even in the early years of the Depression—has so large a part of the world economy experienced so devastating a fall from grace." He went on to argue that if Asian count…

"How'd Krugman ever get accepted as an economist? He seems to be a massive doomcrier who is consistently wrong, and uses a lot of anecdotes and very few hard numbers."

You need to separate Krugman's work as an academic economist from his work as a "popular economist" and political commentator. I'm not an economist, but my understanding is that his academic work is outstanding and has contributed significantly to improving the models for understanding international trade. He also correctly predicted that fixed exchange rate regimes would be dangerously unstable (a lesson that not everybody has learned yet).

As you point out however, he was incorrect in his prescription for how to deal with the currency crisis. I'm going to postulate here that economists don't have really good models for studying how to recover from crisis events because they are relatively rare in comparison to their complexity, so the mathematical tools of economics are unable to explain them well. When you're placed in a situation in which you do not have enough information to make a good recommendation, the correct action is to admit that fact. That goes for the current crisis as well. Krugman seems to have very strong idealogical tendencies, given that he wrote a book called "The Conscience of a Liberal," and thus expresses his opinion about how to handle these matters much more forcefully than is warranted by the information that is provided by economics. In my opinion, this is an abuse of the natural authority provided by his economic credentials, and he should probably stick to writing articles for the academic community and not the popular press.

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#12
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Krugman's contributions aren't widely discussed because they are in the realm of quantitative economic analysis. Heavy in math and not prone to simple explanations. Most of quant econ revolves around trying to use mathematical techniques to derive a more accurate model of what's going on with large scale scale economic aggregates (GDP and CPI are the most well known due to the media). Of course the critique of the en…

Krugman was very influential in the development of a theory of international trade not involving perfect competition. Whatever you think about economics in general, it seems to be a pretty clear step towards more closely modeling reality.

the problem is that it is impossible to audit said models. unlike real science the social sciences can't isolate variables in order to test predictive power.

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#13
post #2

What Gordon Gekko actually said: The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that oth…

And remember that Gordon Gekko was Oliver Stone's foil for Carl Fox (the father of the main character) who was meant to embody the evil of the 80s takeover era. This speech was based on a University of California speech given by Ivan Boesky, in which he said: "Greed is all right, by the way. I want you to know that. I think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself."

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#14

us free marketers have already lost...capitalism, greed, these are terms invented by anti-free market ideologues. the free market existed before the term capitalism was coined by Marx, what is greed but self-interest? those who pretend to be concerned with something other than their own welfare are in denial at best, and manipulative liars at worst. If we only ever debate on their terms we can not hope to avoid the s…

What do we want to achieve?

Markets, with all of their permutations, are just a few tools in our toolbox. I completely agree with you that the debate needs to be made much less ideological and much more precise, but we cannot pretend these discussions are happening in a vacuum.

I am a fan of Rawls' "veil of ignorance" line of reasoning. This is probably because I want to embrace "luck" not as an excuse for domination, but as something orthogonal to control and subjugation: diversity necessary for us to successfully traverse the fitness landscape, hopefully enabling us, collectively, to move towards the stars and friendly posthuman intelligences.

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#15
post #13
post #2

What Gordon Gekko actually said: The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that oth…

And remember that Gordon Gekko was Oliver Stone's foil for Carl Fox (the father of the main character) who was meant to embody the evil of the 80s takeover era. This speech was based on a University of California speech given by Ivan Boesky, in which he said: "Greed is all right, by the way. I want you to know that. I think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself."

Gekko was the embodiment of capitalism itself and therefore amoral, not evil.

The new law of evolution in corporate America seems to be survival of the unfittest. Well, in my book you either do it right or you get eliminated. In the last seven deals that I've been involved with, there were 2.5 million stockholders who have made a pretax profit of 12 billion dollars. Thank you. I am not a destroyer of companies. I am a liberator of them!

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is a selection effect going on in the higher levels of economic analysis whereby those who tell politicians the narratives they need to justify power grabbing are the ones promoted into the public sphere. most economists will decry such shameless behavior (but who is to say how much of this is jealousy). the other economists you mention are guilty of the same thing. Keynes in particular just bases entire chapte…

> there is a selection effect going on in the higher levels of economic analysis whereby those who tell politicians the narratives they need to justify power grabbing are the ones promoted into the public sphere. That makes sense, good point nazgulnarsil. Thanks. > Keynes in particular just bases entire chapters of his General Theory on trivially fallacious theses. Marx isn't even wrong, he's just exploring a world t…

I'm not a Krugman apologist, and can't bear to read his NYT columns, but he does actually have academic credibility ( even though it is from work he did a fair while ago).

This is a good analysis of Krugman's contributions to international trade from when he won the John Bates Clark medal in 1991 - http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/dixit.html. I'm not sure he's done anything too groundbreaking since then.

He's also co-written the textbook most undergraduate economists use (including me) for international trade - http://www.amazon.com/International-Economics-Theory-Policy-...

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#17

us free marketers have already lost...capitalism, greed, these are terms invented by anti-free market ideologues. the free market existed before the term capitalism was coined by Marx, what is greed but self-interest? those who pretend to be concerned with something other than their own welfare are in denial at best, and manipulative liars at worst. If we only ever debate on their terms we can not hope to avoid the s…

"...those who pretend to be concerned with something other than their own welfare are in denial at best, and manipulative liars at worst."

True, but some people view self-interest much more narrowly than others. For example, some oppose welfare for the poor because they do not want their money going to people who do not work as hard. This is a narrow view of self interest. Others support welfare because they believe that in the absence of welfare, the poor will engage in illegal activities, such as robberies, which will inevitably cost more than taxes that go towards paying for welfare. This is a much broader view of self interest.

Capitalism, unfortunately, has come to be identified with the narrow view of self-interest.

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#18
post #14

us free marketers have already lost...capitalism, greed, these are terms invented by anti-free market ideologues. the free market existed before the term capitalism was coined by Marx, what is greed but self-interest? those who pretend to be concerned with something other than their own welfare are in denial at best, and manipulative liars at worst. If we only ever debate on their terms we can not hope to avoid the s…

What do we want to achieve? Markets, with all of their permutations, are just a few tools in our toolbox. I completely agree with you that the debate needs to be made much less ideological and much more precise, but we cannot pretend these discussions are happening in a vacuum. I am a fan of Rawls' "veil of ignorance" line of reasoning. This is probably because I want to embrace "luck" not as an excuse for domination…

markets are not really a thing. they are just what happens in the absence of people shoving guns in other peoples faces. in the absence of force the only way to get what you want is to offer other people things that they want in exchange. this is civilization, the alternatives are barbarism.

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#19
We are self-interested creatures. We are selfish. Evolutionary psychology will go as far as to say that altruism is selfish. The question is, assuming that each for his own self is a natural state of being, is it a good thing?

If we all act for our own interest, then there is competition and I suppose the more adapted will win, which as it happens is the foundation of evolution. So to speak of checking our own moral compass is empty rhetorics because morality as such does not even exist. Only jusgments as to what is right to do for my own interest and what consequences there are.

Therefore, supposing that morality does not exist, the only way to enforce this "moral compass" is by legislation or culture. The culture in such places is greed and perhaps rightly so as if someone makes money, that money will go somewhere surely, hence making more money, etcetera. If the culture is greed therefore, the only way is imposing a code of conduct supervised by some governing body and or imposing legislation and or, there are ups and downs in life, why should we expect the economy to be up always and never go down.

I think the system is fine, I would have liked to see the banks fail to be honest. If they did not do their job properly they should be out of a job. Otherwise we are just feeding an artificial creature which does not adhere to the laws of evolution and by association competition, perhaps to the detriment of us all.

Re: The Capitalist Manifesto: Greed Is Good (To a point)

#20
post #15
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And remember that Gordon Gekko was Oliver Stone's foil for Carl Fox (the father of the main character) who was meant to embody the evil of the 80s takeover era. This speech was based on a University of California speech given by Ivan Boesky, in which he said: "Greed is all right, by the way. I want you to know that. I think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself."

Gekko was the embodiment of capitalism itself and therefore amoral , not evil. The new law of evolution in corporate America seems to be survival of the unfittest. Well, in my book you either do it right or you get eliminated. In the last seven deals that I've been involved with, there were 2.5 million stockholders who have made a pretax profit of 12 billion dollars. Thank you. I am not a destroyer of companies. I am…

I disagree. There is a huge difference between insider trading and buying a company to sell off pieces of it and make the remainder more efficient through reorganization, even if the reorganization includes layoffs. In the former case, you are abusing your access to information that others do not have in order to make a profit at their expense, and this is why it is illegal. In the latter case, you are making a positive contribution to the wealth of the stockholders of a company, even though this might cause hardship to some of the employees who will have salary/benefits cut or even lose their jobs. Gekko embodies both of these behaviors (as did some of the participants in 80s takeovers), but I don't believe that insider trading properly represents capitalism.
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