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Sleep Flushes Toxins from the Brain

bbc.co.uk

21–30 of 98 posts

Re: Sleep Flushes Toxins from the Brain

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't sleep for long enough (about 7 days), you'll start to have visual and auditory hallucinations and also delusional thinking. You'll also experience severely reduced effectiveness of just about every system in your body. You might not die if you don't sleep for a year (say), but you'll probably get permanent brain damage.

The point of science is to never fall back on claims like "you'll probably get permanent brain damage" unless it's known what brain damage you may get, along with bounds on a confidence interval. Otherwise we're just philosophizing.

Well, it's a testable hypothesis. We will probably never test it in humans or higher mammals due to ethical concerns.

Re: Sleep Flushes Toxins from the Brain

#22
post #19

A "toxin" is something which is toxic to a system. But our knowledge of the brain is so primitive that we can't reasonably claim to know which chemicals are toxic at tiny, long-term dosage levels, unless it leads to death. There is no evidence that it's possible to die directly from sleep deprivation. Therefore this seems a dubious headline.

Rats die "within a matter of weeks" if they do not sleep: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/01664328950...

Curses, you've made me break my "No HN on my work computer" anti-procrastination method. At least it's been only 15 minutes though.

Direct link to the research: http://www.gwern.net/docs/algernon/1995-rechtschaffen.pdf

The paper is titled "Sleep deprivation in the rat by the disk-over-water method." As the name implies, rats are suspended on a disk over water. They can't fall asleep without starting to drown. Thus they are kept awake.

The paper begins with, "Because short-term sleep deprivation (SD) may stimulate only sleep-promoting mechanisms, chronic SD may be required to elicit function-revealing deficits. However, the enforcement of chronic SD requires repeated, intrusive stimulation which can blur the interpretation of effects. Do they result from sleep loss or from the strong stimulation used to enforce SD? To simplify communication, we speak of the 'effects' of SD, but strictly speaking, SD studies are correlational. We apply stimuli to enforce SD and report the relationship between the ensuing sleep loss and changes in performance or physiology. However, the changes and the sleep loss could be independent responses to the stimulation. The interpretation that the changes result from sleep loss hinges on minimizing the contribu- tion of the deprivation-enforcing stimulation, which can be especially difficult when strong stimulation is used to en- force chronic SD."

There are two possibilities. Either rats being repeatedly almost-drowned doesn't contribute to death after 45 days, or it does. The paper goes on to demonstrate the steps they took to minimize the chance that almost-drowning rats resulted in death:

"Hypothermia had been suspected as a proximal cause of death [3,31,34] because all SD rats showed an eventual decline in intraperitoneal temperature (Tip); a decline to more than 1 °C below baseline in otherwise untreated SD rats has been a reliable indicator of impending death within a day or two. However, TSD rats kept warm by exogen- ous heating died nevertheless"

"A second possible cause of death is breakdown of body tissues due to catabolism, secondary to the high metabolic rate in TSD rats [3,14,31]. [...] Evidence against catabolism as a mediator of preterminal effects includes a lack of preterminal serum albumin de- cline in PSD rats [22] and the deaths of all rats in two TSD groups protected against catabolic effects, hypothy- roid rats and high-calorie diet rats. Thus tissue breakdown secondary to catabolism was not a necessary cause of death."

However, this third point is a key conflating factor:

"A third major candidate for proximal cause of death is organ failure secondary to systemic infection, as suggested by bacteremia, which Everson has observed in five of six TSD rats obviously near death [11]. We subsequently confirmed bacteremia in two additional preterminal TSD rats [20]. Very recently, we treated six TSD rats with antibiotic cocktails; five progressed to an apparently ter- minal condition nevertheless and were then killed (after 10-16 days of TSD). Neither heart blood samples, livers, kidneys, nor mesenteric lymph nodes showed aerobic bac- terial or fungal infection. The sixth rat died after 19 days; blood could not be drawn, but the other tissues were har- vested shortly thereafter and were also free of aerobic bacteria and fungi. These results indicate that microbial invasion is not a necessary cause of death in TSD rats."

If you read carefully, they begin by saying "almost-drowning rats eventually results in organ failure." They end with "microbial invasion is not a necessary cause of death."

I think it's possible that almost-drowning rats causes organ failure for reasons other than microbial infection. The fact that the rats progressed to a terminal condition even after antibiotics seems to support this hypothesis. Their organs failed anyway. I wonder if dunking them in water for a month had something to do with it, and not the sleep deprivation?

The paper seems to tiptoe around this point.

Re: Sleep Flushes Toxins from the Brain

#23

A "toxin" is something which is toxic to a system. But our knowledge of the brain is so primitive that we can't reasonably claim to know which chemicals are toxic at tiny, long-term dosage levels, unless it leads to death. There is no evidence that it's possible to die directly from sleep deprivation. Therefore this seems a dubious headline.

If you don't sleep for long enough (about 7 days), you'll start to have visual and auditory hallucinations and also delusional thinking. You'll also experience severely reduced effectiveness of just about every system in your body. You might not die if you don't sleep for a year (say), but you'll probably get permanent brain damage.

Many people experience hallucinations if they stay awake for periods longer than 48 or even 36 hours.

Re: Sleep Flushes Toxins from the Brain

#24
post #5
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Dr Nedergaard] told the BBC: "This is purely speculation, but it looks like the brain is losing a lot of energy when pumping water across the brain and that is probably incompatible with processing information."

The question on everyone's mind now is, can you bypass that need?

Probably not. If a lot of energy is being used in the clean up process, then the need for sleep is most likely driven by the physical advantages of sleep, not the advantage of using less energy or similar.

Note this quote: "Cells in the brain, probably the glial cells which keep nerve cells alive, shrink during sleep. This increases the size of the interstitial space, the gaps between brain tissue, allowing more fluid to be pumped in and wash the toxins away."

Neurons are powerful cells that are so active that they cannot even keep themselves healthy. The glial cells are there to help. If the glial cells are shrinking and (presumably) partially shutting down in order to efficiently clean out the brain, then sleep is an efficient engineering solution -- you are trading off having a super-active brain for ~16 hours at the cost of a less effective brain for ~8 hours.

There may be less efficient solutions that allow for 24 hours semi-wakefulness, we might be able to tune the total activity of the brain down for continuous operation, but being in a groggy half-asleep state all day is probably not what you were hoping for.

Re: Sleep Flushes Toxins from the Brain

#25
post #4
post #3

Can anyone with better knowledge of such things explain why this has to occur during sleep? Is there just too much going on during the day to dedicate physical and mental resources to this type of cleaning?

> [Dr Nedergaard] told the BBC: "This is purely speculation, but it looks like the brain is losing a lot of energy when pumping water across the brain and that is probably incompatible with processing information."

My reaction to this, it is very important to by well hydrated when sleeping.

Re: Sleep Flushes Toxins from the Brain

#26
post #17

A "toxin" is something which is toxic to a system. But our knowledge of the brain is so primitive that we can't reasonably claim to know which chemicals are toxic at tiny, long-term dosage levels, unless it leads to death. There is no evidence that it's possible to die directly from sleep deprivation. Therefore this seems a dubious headline.

The word "toxin" has become a signal for pseudoscientific medicine, so I also furrowed my brow at that. But the original use of the word is much more clear in context. From the abstract which tokenadult kindly linked to: Thus, the restorative function of sleep may be a consequence of the enhanced removal of potentially neurotoxic waste products that accumulate in the awake central nervous system. Also, regarding the…

[deleted]

Re: Sleep Flushes Toxins from the Brain

#27
post #3

Can anyone with better knowledge of such things explain why this has to occur during sleep? Is there just too much going on during the day to dedicate physical and mental resources to this type of cleaning?

I have no better knowledge, just parsing the reports: The cleanup is more effective during sleep because the channels that transport waste from the brain expand 60% in volume, and the brain cells themselves shrink by a similar amount to make room. I suppose that the brain cells can't shrink that much while retaining their full function.

It is not the neurons themselves, but the the glial cells that keep those very large and (potentially) active neurons healthy. Presumably the glial cells must partially shut down in order to physically shrink, thus the neurons must notch down their activity as well.

Re: Sleep Flushes Toxins from the Brain

#29
post #25
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Dr Nedergaard] told the BBC: "This is purely speculation, but it looks like the brain is losing a lot of energy when pumping water across the brain and that is probably incompatible with processing information."

My reaction to this, it is very important to by well hydrated when sleeping.

Technically your brain is using cerebrospinal fluid not water, but the scientist was talking to a reporter, who was writing for the general public. So, something might have been lost in the translation.
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