Visual Studio 2013 released to web • Hacker News Board

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#81

Post by whazzmaster » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 3:46 PM UTC

gecko wrote: post #36

Pxtl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's obviously a solution, it's not quite the same y'know? There's a lot more skill overhead in learning that tool vs the comparative ease of the installer project. Considering how thoroughly MS screwed the pooch on ClickOnce, I was genuinely surprised when they completely abandoned their working installer system.

What's wrong with ClickOnce? I've not used it from a developer's perspective, but Chrome's installation (which uses it) always seems smooth as butter.

For small things ClickOnce is fine, but it's a pain in the ass to automate. For example, there's no way to synchronize the 'version' of the installer with the version of the EXE it's installing. I had to hack[1] it so I could pull the version metadata off the EXE assembly and then force it into the XML of the project file where the ClickOnce settings are stored.

There's also no ability to publish the built installer outside of the UI- my build scripts had to build the /app.publish directory and then just copy the whole shebang to a network location for deployment. I'm not as upset about this being a separate step, but if they indeed allow you to configure and deploy the installer from within the UI why not expose an API to do it as well?

Overall I think ClickOnce is fine for internal, self-updating tools. It's worth noting, however, that I was inspired to create my workflow based on looking at what Github was doing with their windows client.

[1]: http://whazzing.com/blog/2013/04/11/automated-clickonce-buil...

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#82

Post by sk5t » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 3:46 PM UTC

mynameisvlad wrote: post #72

saejox wrote: post #64

"Please install Internet Explorer 10 and then retry installing Visual Studio" Internet Explorer 10 also insists on Windows 7 SP1 installation. I'm using this Win7 install since 2009. I'm very scared the update will jinx it.

That's such a horrible practice I don't even. You're forcing yourself to stay on an older, potentially less maintained version of the OS so you don't "jinx it"?

The VS.NET installer has gotten a lot less terrible since the 2005/2008 days, although it used to be pretty dicey. One may now upgrade with little to no fear of a nightmarishly borked install state... that said, it's wise to use VMs exclusively for development, so rolling back to a pre-update snapshot is an option.

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#83

Post by untog » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 3:46 PM UTC

_pmf_ wrote: post #25

duiker101 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem here is that VS needs to satisfy the needs of many different types of developers and also try to appeal each ones personal preferences. Personally I am enjoying VS2012 a lot and it is really sad that there are hardly other IDEs this good.

> I think the problem here is that VS needs to satisfy the needs of many different types of developers No, it does not need to. Someone decided that it needs to pander to web monkeys instead of empowering users that have used VS for 10+ years.

Someone decided that it needs to pander to web monkeys instead of empowering users that have used VS for 10+ years.

Which it probably does, given the huge amount of development that is web-based these days. The market for Windows-based C# applications is shrinking by the day.

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#84

Post by zwieback » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 3:47 PM UTC

anton_gogolev wrote: post #42

archon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pander to web monkeys Really? How exactly does VS2012 pander to "web monkeys" at the expense of others?

It's not necessarily "monkeys", but, disturbingly, Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. There are a few exceptions to this rule (think EF Code-First), but that's a drop in the ocean.

I felt that way when I switched from m.exe + cl.exe to Visual C++ but I eventually got over it. There's actually some pretty cool stuff happening at the lower levels, check out the "Going Native" stuff on Channel 9.

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#85

Post by alok-g » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 3:54 PM UTC

pmelendez wrote: post #68

scrabble wrote: post #2

I'm still using VS 2010 at work. Can't seem to make a compelling case to upgrade for the cost, and it's just getting more frustrating. VS 2013 is looking like a really great product, especially in comparison to VS 2010.

Depending on what are you using, C++11 complete support is more that enough reason for upgrade to me. :)

Sold! Where can I confirm that VS 2013 is fully C++11 compliant?

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#86

Post by platz » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 4:15 PM UTC

jpalomaki wrote: post #77

And finally we should be able to see function return values in debugger: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudioalm/archive/2013/06/27/s...

That's a great feature which will actually help avoid creating local bindings just to easily see the value.

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#87

Post by Touche » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

apaprocki wrote: post #66

teamonkey wrote: post #50

Fully-integrated TypeScript support! For me that elevates TypeScript from a MS side project to something they're serious about.

From their TypeScript blog post re: path to 1.0: "There are now dozens of large applications written by teams in Microsoft, including Bing, Xbox, TFS, So.cl, as well as in projects such as Adobe Digital Publishing Suite for Windows 8.1, Zud.io, Away3D, and Turbulenz." I think they've been pretty serious about it from the start due to the design decisions in Metro.

That's pretty impressive. Why isn't Google releasing info about all of their projects that are using Dart?

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#88

Post by curiousDog » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 4:18 PM UTC

scrabble wrote: post #2

I'm still using VS 2010 at work. Can't seem to make a compelling case to upgrade for the cost, and it's just getting more frustrating. VS 2013 is looking like a really great product, especially in comparison to VS 2010.

Yes! 2013 feels much faster and lighter too. No more waiting for a while for it to be page-faulted in when you wake up an idle .sln

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#89

Post by gcb1 » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 4:53 PM UTC

anton_gogolev wrote: post #42

archon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pander to web monkeys Really? How exactly does VS2012 pander to "web monkeys" at the expense of others?

It's not necessarily "monkeys", but, disturbingly, Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. There are a few exceptions to this rule (think EF Code-First), but that's a drop in the ocean.

you are right. vs wizards were mostly limited to visual basic. now vs is vb.

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#90

Post by phaed » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 4:56 PM UTC

curiousDog wrote: post #88

scrabble wrote: post #2

I'm still using VS 2010 at work. Can't seem to make a compelling case to upgrade for the cost, and it's just getting more frustrating. VS 2013 is looking like a really great product, especially in comparison to VS 2010.

Yes! 2013 feels much faster and lighter too. No more waiting for a while for it to be page-faulted in when you wake up an idle .sln

Dear god this has been fixed? Upgrading right away.