Visual Studio 2013 released to web • Hacker News Board

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#51

Post by anton_gogolev » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:25 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #45

anton_gogolev wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily "monkeys", but, disturbingly, Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. There are a few exceptions to this rule (think EF Code-First), but that's a drop in the ocean.

Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. Maybe you are just now noticing, but MS dev tools have always had wizard clicky things. For example, see the original Visual Basics from the 90s.

AFAIK, Visual Basic was targeted at non-professional/beginner programmers, so having wizards and designers is fine there.

My main gripe with abundance of today's "visual programming" is that we have memory-managed languages with immense expressive power and ability to write all kinds of DSLs, yet what Microsoft does is it provides crippled XML-backed designers along with half-baked frameworks and class libraries.

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#52

Post by lucisferre » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:26 PM UTC

anton_gogolev wrote: post #42

archon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pander to web monkeys Really? How exactly does VS2012 pander to "web monkeys" at the expense of others?

It's not necessarily "monkeys", but, disturbingly, Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. There are a few exceptions to this rule (think EF Code-First), but that's a drop in the ocean.

If anything MS tools have moved away from clickety-clickery. That was something they were pretty much famous for back in 2008. MVC and EF are just a couple examples of moving away from this patter. This is nothing but imaginative revisionism.

Don't get me wrong, this type of thing drove me from the MS ecosystem a while ago now but they do move largely in the right direction, just too slowly for my tastes.

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#53

Post by acqq » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:26 PM UTC

In VS 2012 MSFT removed the color for the icons in the UI. Everybody complained on the web. Now the color icons are back. MSFT's spin:

"Visual Studio 2013 includes many user interface improvements based on customer feedback and Microsoft’s core design principle of keeping the focus on the content to deliver an improved user experience. You may notice the more than 400 modified icons with greater differentiation and increased use of color,"

http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/visual-studio-2013

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#54

Post by rschmitty » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:29 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #45

anton_gogolev wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily "monkeys", but, disturbingly, Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. There are a few exceptions to this rule (think EF Code-First), but that's a drop in the ocean.

Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. Maybe you are just now noticing, but MS dev tools have always had wizard clicky things. For example, see the original Visual Basics from the 90s.

Ya, I can't begin to tell you the number of times I have been made fun of by ___ text editor fanatics for using an IDE that has wizard clicky things/drag drop components etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkDD03yeLnU things like this never help

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#55

Post by ninjakeyboard » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:29 PM UTC

I can't seem to find the dmg for mac.

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#56

Post by rubberband » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:32 PM UTC

mu_killnine wrote: post #10

Very nice. I really love 2012 and the 2013 RC was pretty solid as well. The step up from 2010 was the most pronounced, as 2012 just runs circles around 2010 in (albeit, my own anecdotal) performance. Just gotta wait for an upgrade license of R# to go on sale, as R#7 isn't compatible with 2013 ;(

For what it's worth, I got a 50% discount from them from buying R#7 so close to the R#8 release date (uninstalled 7, and mentioned in the "please tell us why" comments that it was just too expensive). May be worth a shot.

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#57

Post by Leszek » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:33 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #53

In VS 2012 MSFT removed the color for the icons in the UI. Everybody complained on the web. Now the color icons are back. MSFT's spin: "Visual Studio 2013 includes many user interface improvements based on customer feedback and Microsoft’s core design principle of keeping the focus on the content to deliver an improved user experience. You may notice the more than 400 modified icons with greater differentiation and i…

> based on customer feedback

Sounds about right to me. Why is this "spin"?

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#58

Post by atwebb » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #53

In VS 2012 MSFT removed the color for the icons in the UI. Everybody complained on the web. Now the color icons are back. MSFT's spin: "Visual Studio 2013 includes many user interface improvements based on customer feedback and Microsoft’s core design principle of keeping the focus on the content to deliver an improved user experience. You may notice the more than 400 modified icons with greater differentiation and i…

So they put it back and now people are unhappy a company didn't flat out say they made a bad decision? Spin is everywhere, startups seem worse than others. Every day there's something on the HN front page that's going to revolutionize and disrupt the internet...

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#59

Post by devnetfx » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:36 PM UTC

anton_gogolev wrote: post #34

acqq wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VS 2008 is the last one capable to compile the C++ to produce the binaries that can run on Windows 2000. Believe or not, I actually need that. That prevents me to use any C++ language changes introduced after VS 2008. The frustrating part is that MS actually removed the existing code from the already existing libraries (but which are not binary interchangeable between the compiler versions) in order to disable the su…

"MSDN Camp"[1] in its full glory. [1]: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html

Wow, a long article but still relevant. As I was reading this I realised how closely it matches even the latest metro ui fiasco (for developers). Indeed "MSDN Camp" has won. Thanks for the link!

Re: Visual Studio 2013 released to web

#60

Post by acqq » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

atwebb wrote: post #58

acqq wrote: post #53

In VS 2012 MSFT removed the color for the icons in the UI. Everybody complained on the web. Now the color icons are back. MSFT's spin: "Visual Studio 2013 includes many user interface improvements based on customer feedback and Microsoft’s core design principle of keeping the focus on the content to deliver an improved user experience. You may notice the more than 400 modified icons with greater differentiation and i…

So they put it back and now people are unhappy a company didn't flat out say they made a bad decision? Spin is everywhere, startups seem worse than others. Every day there's something on the HN front page that's going to revolutionize and disrupt the internet...

No, I'm unhappy that they kept the capitals in menus(!) like "FILE" "EDIT" "VIEW" "PROJECT" "BUILD" even though there were enough complaints about these too. I'm also unhappy there's no real Start menu back in W8.1.