Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes • Hacker News Board

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#71

Post by autotravis » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:17 PM UTC

theboss wrote: post #25

pessimizer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A horrible comment. These are people who are minimizing their profiles, not magical fairy creatures. Of course if you buy a house under your own name, you will be easy to find - but with a little creativity, you may be able to get around that. Just because these people are guarded about their activities and their images does not mean that they are handing out tips about how to run for Congress anonymously, so there's…

These people? I am one of them. I understand the in's and out's of just about the best you can do when it comes to living off the map. The article says they are living off the map, which they certainly aren't. Like I said, minimizing your footprint is one thing, and that is good, but saying these people are "Offline" is absurd.

> The article says they are living off the map, which they certainly aren't.

No, it doesn't.

'“It’s basically impossible for you and I to decide, as of tomorrow, I’m going to remain off the radar and to survive for a month or 12 months,” says Gunter Ollmann, the CTO of security firm IOActive'

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#72

Post by ctdonath » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:20 PM UTC

Dirlewanger wrote: post #8

Ritter, for instance, recently met an insurance executive who always pays for meals with cash because he believes some day that data will be linked to his coverage. “I’m not saying this is a definite thing that happens,” Ritter says. “but I don’t see any definite reason why it couldn’t." Don't let it stop there. Buying a six pack for the weekend? Watch your healthcare premium go up by like 0.001% or something like th…

This is exactly the problem I have with any "federal sales tax" program: the airgap between what I'm buying and automated governmental analysis thereof shrinks to sparking distance, thanks to instant rendering of tax coupled with inevitable "requirement" to adjust that tax based on arbitrary legislated factors. Buy a six pack? healthcare premium increases. Buy health products? get a tax credit. Buy fertilizer? auto-crosscheck your recent contacts against known terrorists. Made your purchase sooner than speed limits make possible from your last known freeway location? pay your fine first.

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#73

Post by 6d0debc071 » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:23 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #60

6d0debc071 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are they wrong? Did you not just increase their liability by 0.001%? If people with lower risks didn't pay for people with higher risks, there'd be no insurance market. If you can perfectly predict what's going to happen to someone - and you charge them all exactly what it's going to cost, + your overheads, then there's no reason they should buy insurance rather than putting the money into an investment plan. Actua…

It's a spectrum, not a boolean value. Insurance companies will never get to 100% omniscience, that's silly. Nor will lower-risk people pay so little as to not offer an incentive for insurance to exist. Lower risk is not no risk. Today the concept I'm talking about already exists in the form of good driver incentives, so the outcome you're predicting is already not how this plays out.

A lower risk insurer can afford to offer lower prices. Similar things happen in the credit market, where risk is more easily predicted. High risk credit is very expensive, often pricing people clean out of the market - door to door credit is declining in popularity as credit agencies find their margins getting slimmer.

Even today, some people are to all intents and purposes uninsurable. Perfection isn't required. Just knowledge of a significant disparity.

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#74

Post by quanics » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

Steko wrote: post #31

DougWebb wrote: post #21

Ironic: I use Ghostery to block website trackers, and it identified thirteen of them on that article.

Alanis level irony: millions of people use Ghostery and most aren't aware it tracks them and sells their data.

You can also use the open source disconnect.

https://disconnect.me/

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#75

Post by Steko » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

Amadou wrote: post #35

Steko wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alanis level irony: millions of people use Ghostery and most aren't aware it tracks them and sells their data.

Alanis level irony: millions of people use Ghostery and most aren't aware it tracks them and sells their data. You have to actively turn the reporting on, it is not the default. It isn't a hidden option either, it is the very first one on the configuration page.

Off by default yes but blocking trackers is also off by default and as soon as you hit the settings they promt you to opt in. And if you're opted out you can be sure that every few weeks to a month Ghostery will update and try to get you to mess with it's "redesigned control panel". This is less annoying than YouTube's constantly trying to trick you to sign up for G+, but it's still annoying behavior that 90%+ of addons avoid.

And they downplay the sales angle [1] and fail to mention that they sent every url you visit back to their servers in the clear [2]. That's fine if it doesn't bother you but it strikes me as shady and disingenuous on Ghostery's part. Anyone who feels likewise should check out Disconnect [3] which is open source and breaks fewer sites.

[1] Although not as egregiously as in the past. Here is how they originally pitched GhostRank: Ghostery provides reports to Evidon about advertisers and data collectors, which Evidon then provides to regulatory agencies like the Better Business Bureau (BBB) and the Direct Marketing Association, parts of the Digital Advertising Alliance (DAA)[2]. These agencies then use those reports to monitor how Online Behavioral Advertisers operate and, when needed, refer them to the Federal Trade Commission.

[2] http://wtf.cyprio.net/ghostrank-logs-every-visited-url-in-cl...

[3] https://disconnect.me/

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#76

Post by roc » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:35 PM UTC

theboss wrote: post #6

A horrible article. Offline? The lady has a tech-startup in SanFrancisco. Untracked? Still possible to track her. There is nothing you can do to prevent it. If you want to buy a house, you're going to need credit, if you want credit then you're going to be tracked. That's just the way it works in developed nations. It is one thing to be mindful of security. Protecting your data, understanding the limits of cryptograp…

It's not about being entirely anonymous. It's about not having individual pieces of data being trivially linked together and pointing at you.

That is, it's about avoiding a situation where a yelp review can be trivially linked to your identity from which your home address, work address, children's school, and probably a bunch of purchases or service activity from some website that got (or gets) hacked.

EDIT: And it's the future-tense "gets hacked" that ought to be particularly concerning. Considering government contractors and online services leak user data left and right, anything they know will eventually become tantamount to publicly accessible. Managing ones footprint (e.g. putting their toll device in a cage) is a mitigation against not only what is currently happening to that data, but what may happen and what it can be cross-referenced.

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#77

Post by tedunangst » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:43 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #72

Dirlewanger wrote: post #8

Ritter, for instance, recently met an insurance executive who always pays for meals with cash because he believes some day that data will be linked to his coverage. “I’m not saying this is a definite thing that happens,” Ritter says. “but I don’t see any definite reason why it couldn’t." Don't let it stop there. Buying a six pack for the weekend? Watch your healthcare premium go up by like 0.001% or something like th…

This is exactly the problem I have with any "federal sales tax" program: the airgap between what I'm buying and automated governmental analysis thereof shrinks to sparking distance, thanks to instant rendering of tax coupled with inevitable "requirement" to adjust that tax based on arbitrary legislated factors. Buy a six pack? healthcare premium increases. Buy health products? get a tax credit. Buy fertilizer? auto-c…

How do you know that all that data isn't being collected by the state and and passed up to the federal government?

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#78

Post by diminoten » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:51 PM UTC

g8oz wrote: post #54

diminoten wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they wrong? Did you not just increase their liability by 0.001%? I guess I'm still having a hard time squaring personal responsibility with this idea of complete anonymity. It's not that we shouldn't be able to hide anything, but like the article said, it's just not possible (or even reasonable to expect) to hide everything. Existing in society leaves a footprint, especially in cases like license plates - they're…

OP did increase their liability. But do we want to track right and wrong down to that level? Do we want to be that uptight and excruciating? When society's systems get too efficient the potential for tyranny gets get ever higher. Compare efficient colonizers like the English vs sloppy ones like the Spanish. Indigenous groups are far more of a presence in the countries where the latter ruled vs the former. That's not…

This isn't tracking right and wrong, it's tracking liability.

There is no assertion of moral position here.

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#79

Post by devindotcom » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:52 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #11

Moral of the story: to really disappear, you're going to need to go live in a forest somewhere or move to the high plains of Tibet. Potentially useful information, if there's mobsters after you. The RFID tags in tires is a perfect illustration of why it's going to be practically impossible to live in the modern world and cover all your tracks. I certainly didn't know there are tags in tires (which, BTW, is a nifty id…

I agree, it's not all your activity you want to keep secret (in which case move to the forest), it's the secret activity. It's not secret when you walk to the store, and it's not secret when you post a photo online or check into a location. However, there must always be a method for secret communication, and of course there is now, it's just not as convenient as the non-secure methods.

Re: Think You Can Live Offline Without Being Tracked? Here's What It Takes

#80

Post by Amadou » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 9:53 PM UTC

Zikes wrote: post #22

theboss wrote: post #6

A horrible article. Offline? The lady has a tech-startup in SanFrancisco. Untracked? Still possible to track her. There is nothing you can do to prevent it. If you want to buy a house, you're going to need credit, if you want credit then you're going to be tracked. That's just the way it works in developed nations. It is one thing to be mindful of security. Protecting your data, understanding the limits of cryptograp…

Even if you paid cash for that house, the tax records can be public.

Even if you paid cash for that house, the tax records can be public.

The short version:

(1) Hire someone to create a New Mexico LLC, there are lots of companies out there that will do this for you.

(2) Transfer ownership of the NM LLC to you - there are no requirements for filing transfer of ownership with any public entity. Just make sure you don't lose the paperwork. If there is no taxable income to the LLC there are no filing requirements beyond paying the yearly registration fee.

(3) Purchase house with cash in the name of the NM LLC. Hire a nominee to sign the paperwork, fire the nominee afterwards.

You now own a house with no public records of your ownership. If you need to sell you can sell the NM LLC instead of the house and there won't even be a public record of the sale, the deed will still show the NM LLC as the owner. There may be tax implications for such a sale depending on the local state's laws (california for one).