31–40 of 206 posts
What HN should do is add a feature where readers can upvote stories so they can have their say about what is on the front page. This would address OP's concerns.
I see it as there is a certain culture here, one which i happen to be in agreement with most of the time, while there is still room for dissent.
Flamewars != disagreements. Discouraging flamewars (namecalling, counterproductive arguing that devolves into ad hominem and unrelated attacks) doesn't mean it kills stories that generate disagreement and discussion. I've had many a disagreement in HN threads, been convinced that my original stance was wrong, and (I believe) convinced others that their original stance was wrong (or incomplete, or to change something…
"Flamewar" is such a Paul Graham term that doesn't really help with dealing with the problem. I'd rather use the reddit terminology of "controversial discussions" where people are coming from very different places. I think the problems with Hacker News has more to do with a failure to account for those situations over the echo chamber discussions where everyone is in (borderline-insufferable) agreement.
That is not the sort of conversation that that Paul Graham considers a flamewar.
In other words, a place focused on particular subjects (technology, programming, science) collects people with similar life experiences, interests, worldviews, etc.
That kind of thinking betrays the idea of diversity existing within those fields.
Sure, the problems of that post were symptomatic of the broader social algorithms of HN, but I don't think they mean HN's rules and the underlying enforcement patterns are inherently wrong. They just didn't work well in this particular case.
HN is privately run by pg. He's allowed to set the rules whichever way he wants. Just because the author wants it to be run a certain way doesn't mean that it should. If he doesn't like how it's done and thinks that issues that he believes are important should be discussed, he should make his own news aggregator site, instead of trying to hijack an already-established site for his own agenda. If the majority start di…
- I never flag stories; I may not find a story interesting, but I don't feel it's appropriate to impose my interests on others or 'police' their discussions.
- I rarely upvote stories, mostly because I'm usually browsing stories that are already on the front-page. Occasionally I skim through the new stories and if I see something interesting there I might upvote it.
- For comments, I upvote comments I find particularly helpful or insightful. I don't downvote comments very often unless they're particularly rude. However, I never downvote comments that are part of a discussion I'm having; I don't trust my impartiality in that case.
If my behavior is typical, then stories are being controlled by a 'vocal minority' who take the time to upvote or flag them. As in any group, the vocal minority tends to have the more fundamentalist / extremist points of view on a subject, which could lead to the outcomes TFA discusses.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
4chan. Anonymous (well, you can use a trip, but you'll be mocked for it). No downvotes. Very limited moderation, and what there is has a lot of transparency. There's, inevitably, a lot of low-level trolling, but you also get some amazingly original insights.
4chan [...] amazingly original insights. On /b/? Where?
Different behavior results, sure, but look at the cost. Whats the SNR on HN, -3 dB, -6 dB maybe? Would HN readers tolerate HN turning into mostly garbage with a handful of precious gems?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The end result is the same though, HN conceals any controversial subjects, even ones that are important to the vitality of our industry.
The topic is undoubtedly important, but is the discussion of the topic specifically on HN really vital to our industry? I question this because such discussions seem to be, in practice , the exact opposite of productive. They are not so much discussions as they are internet shouting matches. I doubt very few people walk away from those discussions with altered perspectives.
ADDENDUM: To those who counter that Hacker News has become such an important place in the internet consciousness that it needs to now address these things, consider that a primary reason it has become as important as it is now is that the rule you now complain about have done what they were intended to do.
Pope remains Catholic 12 points by BCM43 56 minutes ago | flag | discuss Bear shits in wood 32 points by BCM43 21 minutes ago | flag | discuss