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Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

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Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer minimum service guarantees rather than maximum usage allowances . If I want to maximize my use of my connection, the only thing my ISP should do is reduce my throughput when someone else is trying to check their email, so that I do not get in their way. Other than that Internet connections should be a free-for-all. The real problem here is that ISPs are so grossly overselling their networks' capacities…

Following the thread here, I think what you are asking for is unreasonable given the current infrastructure or massively unpopular. In the current environment what you are asking for is completely possible. Comcast will give you your speeds, but if they see you are seeding your debian torrents for too long, they will throttle your connection. Now they could advertise this, but we know how unpopular connection throttl…

"Now I don't know anything about laying internet pipe, but lets say we gave everyone minimum service guarantees, how much do you think that would cost, and how much would you be willing to pay for a given speed? It may be completely possible that Comcast is fine with your seeding as long as you limit your speed to percentage of that number."

I think the cost of providing such a guarantee depends on the guarantee, and therein lies the problem. Right now, I suspect that a typical cable modem connection would only be able to guarantee dialup speeds, due to how massively oversold the bandwidth is. Of course, most people do not seed torrents or run web servers or whatever else on their home connection, and so we never see service so degraded.

"Would it really change anything for you if you found out that your minimum service guarantee was 768kbps at your current price point?"

Sure: I would have a much higher opinion of my ISP. Frankly, I would have a higher opinion if service classes were based on such minimum service levels rather than maximum levels: I would much rather pay for at least 768kbps than at most 20Mbps, particularly if "at least 768kbps" meant "at least 768kbps, and higher throughput when available."

Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#142
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The friction in these situations generally comes from the hand-wavey definition of server. Google doesn't care about your website as it currently exists. They do care if it turns into boingboing, or something more commercial. Clearly defining the point at which the line is crossed hamstrings them when unforseen situations arise. Not clearly defining it allows for capricious enforcement. At either end of the spectrum…

> They do care if it turns into boingboing Why? Really why? I'm buying a certain number of bits per second. They don't need to know nor should care about the content of those bits. If they oversubscribe and sell bandwidth "bursting" up to X, but only a small fraction of X for a sustained period then they should have to advertise that clearly and not claim "X bandwidth connection". Rather than burying it in a TOS.

I'm buying a certain number of bits per second.

You are paying for a given usage profile, and the economics are based around that usage profile. A few leaches can exist for a given economic expectation, but beyond that everyone suffers.

Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#143
post #88

I still don't think this comports with the net neutrality rules, which focus on network management at a user/protocol level. Commercial/non-commercial is a business distinction -- which is exactly what net neutrality was meant to stop (e.g. Comcast throttling BitTorrent). Google Fiber shouldn't care a whit if my server is commercial or non-commercial (what does that even mean?) If my usage hurts the network, then GF…

Which part of the Open Internet Order do you think this violates?

No blocking. Fixed broadband providers may not block lawful content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices; mobile broadband providers may not block lawful websites, or block applications that compete with their voice or video telephony services.

Blocking users from running servers runs afoul of the blocking rule. As long as my website is lawful why should they be allowed to block it? Nothing in the rules says it has to be a technological means of blocking, a T&Cs block seems like it would be equally covered.

Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#144
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want minimum service guarantees, buy a dedicated line. They generally run somewhere around $2500 a month for symmetric 50 Mbps. If you don't want to pay that much, but you still do want the option of bursting to 50 Mbps (or more), shared bandwidth, like you get from your average residential plan, is your best bet. And I don't know about your experience, but more often than not, I do get the advertised speeds,…

It's not that I want a guarantee of 50Mbps. What I really want is for everyone to have a guarantee of, say, 768kbps, so that when I am sitting here seeding Debian torrents I do not have to worry that the old lady living next door will not be able to video chat with her grandchildren. I also find it somewhat difficult to accept the idea that no such guarantee will be made, yet I will still be punished if I reduce the…

It's actually pretty difficult, technically, to provide you with a minimum guaranteed amount of bandwidth, without simultaneously limiting everyone else.

The problem is that there are many layers in the networking stack which interact in complicated ways. TCP congestion control algorithms and TCP slow start, which happen at the endpoints. Buffering, which happens at pretty much every intermediate hop in the path. And traffic shaping, which can pretty much only drop packets to limit bandwidth used.

If I'm supposed to guarantee you 768kbps, that means that I need to drop any packets from everyone else that exceeds the capacity minus 768kbps. But if I do this for everybody, I'm back to the case where I'm giving everyone a dedicated 768kbps, and they aren't able to share excess bandwidth at all.

Now, you could imagine a scheme in which I don't limit other people's bandwidth until you actually start using some. But then if it's congested when you start your transfer, you won't actually be able to send data at your full 768kbps at first, so TCP congestion control will kick in and limit you to less than that. So when traffic shaping looks at your stream, it sees something less than being used. Should it then limit everyone else such that it guarantees you your full 768kbps? If it does that every time someone uses their connection, then services that trickle just a small amount of data will essentially guarantee that everyone is always being guaranteed their 768kbps by limiting everyone else, and you're back to the "OK, now everyone has a dedicated 768kbps connection that won't go faster".

Or should it limit everyone else based on the bandwidth that you are currently using? Say, when it notices that you are sending 10 kbps, it throttles everyone else down to allow you 15 kbps; then when you increase to sending 15 kbps, it throttles everyone else down to allow you to send 20 kbps, and so on, until you hit your guaranteed bandwidth. Based on the delays it takes for TCP congestion control to ramp up the speed it tries to send while traffic shaping ramps up the amount it's limiting everyone else to give you the bandwidth you need, and the latencies involved (generally tens to low hundreds of milliseconds round trips) it could be a few seconds before you are actually able to get up to your guaranteed bandwidth.

But those first few seconds are generally the most crucial to be delivered quickly. Most people are browsing the web, where there are lots of short page loads. You want those to be able to kick in quickly and then be done with.

Remember, this is an industry where we've only recently come to understand the effects of buffer bloat on performance. Effective quality of service guarantees, other than giving everyone X guaranteed bandwidth by limiting everyone else to the total minus X bandwidth (which, when the network approaches capacity, becomes not much different than giving everyone an X bandwidth dedicated line), is a hard problem.

  My real point is that I do not see why people should be 
  punished for using their connection continuously. Comcast 
  did not offer me "burst service," they offered me "always 
  on" service with "speeds up to X." I feel little sympathy 
  for an ISP that massively oversold service and then claimed 
  that it is abusive for customers to actually use what they 
  are paying for.
Yes. It's always on service (as in, you can be connected and have the service available 100% of the time) and have speeds up to X available. That's what they promised, and that's what they deliver. They also sold this as a "Residential" service. They have other services for commercial and dedicated lines, that they will sell you for greater utilization.

You are not paying for continuous use of X, you are paying for an always available line that gives you speed up to X, for personal residential use.

Restrictions on not using the network abusively or not running commercial services on a home network are not some creepy abusive plot, they are really the best that the networks can do to provide you with affordable, high-speed broadband.

Do I wish that there were more competition? Sure. Do I wish that I got higher speeds for cheaper? Sure. Do I wish that they would be network neutral and not block ports running on my network? Absolutely. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with selling a residential plan that is for residential purposes, and enforcing that, separately from their commercial plan, and separately from their dedicated plan. It's not that difficult; if you want to use it for commercial purposes, use their commercial plan. If you want guaranteed bandwidth, buy a dedicated line.

And remember, the ISPs have not "massively oversold" their services. If you look at the FCC's report (measured in 2011): http://web.archive.org/web/20130511164730/http://transition.... , you'll see several ISPs that actually exceed their advertised bandwidths even during peak hours. Now, some of them are clearly not doing so well by that metric; Century Link is not even hitting 80% off peak, and barely 50% on peak. I would say you have a good case for false advertising there. But if you notice, Comcast and Verizon FiOS manage to exceed their advertised bandwidth, on average, even on peak. This matches pretty well with my experience over the last 5 years or so. I've had both DSL and Cable. DSL routinely underperformed what was sold, which was already paltry. But cable has generally exceeded what was sold, when connecting to servers that could actually handle the load.

So, I'm not sure I'd call that "massively overselling", other than maybe Century Link (and the other DSL providers don't hold up too well either).

Think of it like a buffet. For efficiency and simplicity, it's an all-you-can eat plan; unlike food, people aren't very good at knowing how much they are going to use and so charging based on usage is much more unpopular, making buffet style plans much more populat. So they do "all you can eat". And the rules are, it's all you can eat, and in one sitting; you can't take a bunch with you and then sell it to someone else, nor can you horde food for takeout because "you're going to eat it later". Would you start complaining and railing that the all-you-can eat buffet massively overselling? No. That's all that they're doing with the internet plan; it's just that there are less social conventions and it's easier to accidentally (or deliberately) massively overuse your fair share of bandwidth than it is to massively abuse a buffet, since it all happens automatically.

Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mine doesn't (Roadrunner). I run my own SMTP server off my cable modem. I have no problems getting incoming mail. Outgoing, however, was a pain because so many SMTP servers block mail coming from dynamic IPs. It annoys me to no end. I understand the reasons for doing it, but it annoys me to no end. I had to set up a small satellite server on a static IP that I route all my outgoing mail through.

This leads me to wonder why you run any portion of your mail server from your home if you have access to a small satellite server?

Mostly because the small satellite server requires very little storage, cpu, or memory. I have about 100G of mail on my IMAP server (not all in one account: I run email for everyone in my family), and that kind of space isn't cheap in the server rental business (despite the fact that a 2TB drive is $90).

Plus I just like having my data here, and not somewhere where I have no physical access.

Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#146
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not overuse if you're using the bandwidth that is advertised. If they can't handle you using the bandwidth, then they shouldn't offer it.

Did you read my comment? To do that they'd have to cut all the speeds drastically, but charge the same.

That's their problem, not mine. I'm not the one that lied to get business.

Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#147
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read my comment? To do that they'd have to cut all the speeds drastically, but charge the same.

That's their problem, not mine. I'm not the one that lied to get business.

I'd have a worse service for the same money. It would force the situation to always be exactly the same as the worst possible situation now (everyone using it at the same time), assuming it was done perfectly. How is that their problem? How is me getting a slower service for the same price not my problem?

Second, where did they lie? My terms and conditions explicitly state that speed is dependent on many factors, including the number of active users.

Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do care if it turns into boingboing Why? Really why? I'm buying a certain number of bits per second. They don't need to know nor should care about the content of those bits. If they oversubscribe and sell bandwidth "bursting" up to X, but only a small fraction of X for a sustained period then they should have to advertise that clearly and not claim "X bandwidth connection". Rather than burying it in a TOS.

I'm buying a certain number of bits per second. You are paying for a given usage profile, and the economics are based around that usage profile. A few leaches can exist for a given economic expectation, but beyond that everyone suffers .

Then, like I said, they should advertise they are selling "a usage profile" and not bandwidth. There are laws that protect consumers from being misled.

Leaches, wtf?

Should the power company be able too ban you from using the electricity they sell you to power a saw? If you do, are you then leeching from the other electricity customers?

Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm buying a certain number of bits per second. You are paying for a given usage profile, and the economics are based around that usage profile. A few leaches can exist for a given economic expectation, but beyond that everyone suffers .

Then, like I said, they should advertise they are selling "a usage profile" and not bandwidth. There are laws that protect consumers from being misled. Leaches, wtf? Should the power company be able too ban you from using the electricity they sell you to power a saw? If you do, are you then leeching from the other electricity customers?

[deleted]

Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm buying a certain number of bits per second. You are paying for a given usage profile, and the economics are based around that usage profile. A few leaches can exist for a given economic expectation, but beyond that everyone suffers .

Then, like I said, they should advertise they are selling "a usage profile" and not bandwidth. There are laws that protect consumers from being misled. Leaches, wtf? Should the power company be able too ban you from using the electricity they sell you to power a saw? If you do, are you then leeching from the other electricity customers?

Google isn't being misleading any more than a landlord. You can't run an auto repair shop in an apartment complex; they usually forbid that in the lease.

Just because you purchased 800 square feet (or 1Gbps), doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it.

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