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On being the right size (1928)

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Re: On being the right size (1928)

#111
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"can't do better in life and need the Government protection." I mostly agree with your points, but this one fails. I say there's a pyramid. You say thats a politically incorrect concept to think about from a psuedo-right perspective, therefore it surely doesn't exist and all topic change-y. Bzzt try again. Is there or is there not a pyramid of skills, and if a working definition of the level of civilization is lookin…

> I mostly agree with your points, but this one fails. I say there's a pyramid. You say thats a politically incorrect concept to think about from a psuedo-right perspective, therefore it surely doesn't exist and all topic change-y. Bzzt try again. Is there or is there not a pyramid of skills, and if a working definition of the level of civilization is looking at how the downtrodden are treated, what are you proposing…

"And what is "civilization market cost" ? 1usd/hr? 2usd/hr? 50usd/hr? 1000usd/hr ? Can you define this nonsense?"

I would start as a first guess at minimum wage, or maybe the .gov definition of living in poverty. I'm not entirely sure what the problem with the equivalent of an amusement part "you must be this tall" sign is. We certainly permit it with real estate prices, where extensive zoning and regulation mean you must have a certain minimal level of productivity to live somewhere... why not the similar concept of a certain minimal level of productivity to work somewhere?

The walmart effect is they move in and 99% as a group end up net poorer while the 1% gets richer.

Maybe another way to put it, is someone with "enough" income provides for all their needs. Being allowed to pay someone less than their needs doesn't mean they magically just don't get their needs, thats why we call them needs. We just end up with a bloated .gov infrastructure to very inefficiently transfer tax money from more successful individuals to the poorer individuals. Its not like you're planning to starve them to death, are you? Either implement a bloated inefficient bureaucracy to steal from the slightly more successful or face outright revolution.

Take a macro view. Imagine walmart opens and collapses local labor rates for some employees below "the minimum". The next effect is walmart makes more money and .gov bureaucracy makes more money because now I pay more taxes so their kids can still attend public school, I pay more taxes for their emergency room medical care they're still going to receive, just more expensively than the care I get, etc. So the only winners in this scenario are the cheapskate welfare queen business owner who's not paying his fair share, and .gov bureaucracy middlemen who supervise stealing more of my money so the poor folks still get the same services. I'd rather walmart not open and the parasites get less money and everyone is basically richer because of it.

Your example of the coworker with the ridiculous lifestyle is spurious. You already pay her Dr bill. Its just we waste a lot of money on for profit middlemen. The other reason lifestyle is spurious is she's already being punished pretty severely, first of all she's sick which is no fun, and secondly she'd going to die young and capital punishment, however delayed, is already pretty harsh. We exist in an economic system where in addition to those two fun results she can also become impoverished which screws up her family horribly raising .gov costs even more for the rest of us, but one thing is certain that getting rid of middlemen and turning health care into a regulated utility can't possibly cost any more than it already does. Thats the point I simply don't understand about opposition to some form of socialized medicine... you're not avoiding paying $100 for her doctor bill, you're just paying $500 when she goes to the ER for treatment, and with a civilized system you'd be paying $50 because of lack of profit motive and lack of middlemen. So you're not talking about a net loss of $100 because she gets care, but a net savings of $450 because she gets better cheaper care instead of the existing "free ER" system, and you get better care because she's not clogging up the ER when you actually need the ER... Win win all around, except for the parasites and middlemen who like being parasites under the current system.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#112
post #107
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the first problem is its not true, or at least badly out of date. The UAW is close to gaining control of Chrysler aka over 50% ownership. Sounds insane, yet its true. Also I think UAW is a hair under 20% stock ownership of GM at this time. Of course there are innumerable smaller unions who own no stock and pretty much have no assets on the balance sheet, which at least makes them judgment proof if nothing else.…

Thanks for the extra info. As to your point(s) - I get that having two (or more) 'masters' makes things more difficult, but it seems to me to be a pretty desirable state of affairs. After human decision making, the next major mechanism we have for optimising economic activity is the market, and whilst it seems pretty good in situations where there are a lot of interactions (allowing it to price things effectively fro…

"it seems to me to be a pretty desirable state of affairs."

Oh I wouldn't put it that way...

One interesting issue/analogy is a lot of lawyers (labor lawyers?) won't take conflict of interest jobs where they financially benefit if their client loses / opponent wins. Too much opportunity for malpractice motive, or appearance of it anyway. If you take it out of labor law, as an analogy, say you were suing a company, you'd never hire a lawyer for "your" side who gets most of his net worth by owning a 20% stake in the company you're suing, would you?

Would a board of director hire a CEO who spends part time at two jobs, both direct competitors of each other in the same field?

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#113
post #101
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the American unions eschew financial interests in their employers out of choice?

Well, the first problem is its not true, or at least badly out of date. The UAW is close to gaining control of Chrysler aka over 50% ownership. Sounds insane, yet its true. Also I think UAW is a hair under 20% stock ownership of GM at this time. Of course there are innumerable smaller unions who own no stock and pretty much have no assets on the balance sheet, which at least makes them judgment proof if nothing else.…

UAW was forced into being vested in Chrysler and GM as a condition of the bailout, and it's a condition that they fought tooth and nail.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#114
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now, foreign companies produce many of their cars in the united states with union free labor and american companies have started producing cars in mexico so they can pay the pensions for all the retired union employees. Toyota's plants are UAW who makes the same demands as they do to GM. It's management that failed the US car industry, not the unions.

ehh, I can't find anything about this other than the following article from last year: "While the UAW continues to represent Detroit’s Big Three manufacturers, it has all but completely failed to gain representation rights for the so-called transplant lines now run by virtually all the major foreign-owned automakers, from BMW to Toyota to Volkswagen. " http://www.nbcnews.com/business/foreign-automakers-stubbornl...

Here is an article[1] about how the senators and politicians in Tennessee try to avert installing a German-style Betriebsrat (workers' representation) in their Chattanooga plant. The plan is to have it with UAW.

Have this lovely quote from a manager, and not a politican: "In puncto Mitbestimmung muss klar sein: Demokratie endet für uns nicht an Werkszäunen." (Concerning worker's participation it is clear: for us, democracy does not end at factory gates [fences].)

[1]: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/streit-ueber-vw-betrie...

Sorry that it's in German...

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#115
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ehh, I can't find anything about this other than the following article from last year: "While the UAW continues to represent Detroit’s Big Three manufacturers, it has all but completely failed to gain representation rights for the so-called transplant lines now run by virtually all the major foreign-owned automakers, from BMW to Toyota to Volkswagen. " http://www.nbcnews.com/business/foreign-automakers-stubbornl...

Here is an article[1] about how the senators and politicians in Tennessee try to avert installing a German-style Betriebsrat (workers' representation) in their Chattanooga plant. The plan is to have it with UAW. Have this lovely quote from a manager , and not a politican: "In puncto Mitbestimmung muss klar sein: Demokratie endet für uns nicht an Werkszäunen." (Concerning worker's participation it is clear: for us, de…

the google translation of that quote is pretty funny:

"Democracy does not end for us to plant fences"

I think it's important to consider the rights of the owner as well. If I am a captain on a fishing boat, and I built/paid for the boat, I can then hire fisherman to work on my boat. There are more fishermen than captains, if there is a disagreement between the fishermen and the captain regarding where they should be fishing and it was up to a vote, the fishermen would win.

What incentive does the captain have to invest in his own boat if he has no control over where it goes or how it is run?

Why don't the fisherman go build their own boat if they don't like where the captain is fishing?

The majority in this example microdemocracy is effectively stealing the boat from the owner by using the force of the 'state' to reallocate his resources to themselves.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#116
post #112
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the extra info. As to your point(s) - I get that having two (or more) 'masters' makes things more difficult, but it seems to me to be a pretty desirable state of affairs. After human decision making, the next major mechanism we have for optimising economic activity is the market, and whilst it seems pretty good in situations where there are a lot of interactions (allowing it to price things effectively fro…

"it seems to me to be a pretty desirable state of affairs." Oh I wouldn't put it that way... One interesting issue/analogy is a lot of lawyers (labor lawyers?) won't take conflict of interest jobs where they financially benefit if their client loses / opponent wins. Too much opportunity for malpractice motive, or appearance of it anyway. If you take it out of labor law, as an analogy, say you were suing a company, yo…

While there may be divergent goals between stock holders and employees I think it's incorrect to call all but the worst of them "Conflicts of Interest" (pump and dump situations maybe?). Both the employees and the stockholders rely on their business being successful.

as I posted in another comment:

"I think it's important to consider the rights of the owner as well. If I am a captain on a fishing boat, and I built/paid for the boat, I can then hire fishermen to work on my boat. There are more fishermen than captains, if there is a disagreement between the fishermen and the captain regarding where they should be fishing and it was up to a vote, the fishermen would win.

What incentive does the captain have to invest in his own boat if he has no control over where it goes or how it is run?

Why don't the fisherman go build their own boat if they don't like where the captain is fishing?

The majority in this example microdemocracy is effectively stealing the boat from the owner by using the force of the 'state' to reallocate his resources to themselves."

In this situation it's in everyone's interest to catch more fish. The conflicts will come down to how much of a cut each person gets, who gets the more comfortable cabin etc but these competing goals aren't really conflicts of interest.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#117
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under Capitalism, if a worker disagrees with how their boss allocates their time and labor, the worker is free to start a new business just as the founder once had to. The worker is also free to seek superior employment, if they feel their worth is not being fully appreciated / utilized (and so on and so forth). Workers aren't appreciated at Business X? Start Business Z that treats its employees better. There are cou…

"The reality is, the capital to fund that job comes from someone that had to first create it." ...Starting from first principles (i.e. 'try telling nature'), how exactly is capital 'created'?

Capital is stuff people want. It's a warehouse full of couches, or a truck full of iPads. Or, on a desert island, a pile of hand-carved tools. We can trade this "stuff people want" for "stuff we want."

Over time, we've developed abstractions called "dollar bills" that represent stuff people want. This allows me to have a more general form of capital--instead of having to exchange my "stuff people want" for what I want, I simply exchange it for money, and then trade that for what I want. This makes trade much easier--I don't have to find someone who wants 1,000 iPads in exchange for a piece of industrial equipment.

But I repeat--this is just an abstraction. To create $1 or $1,000 or $1,000,000 of capital, resources must first be used to produce things that people want.

Now, in our modern society, there are all sorts of ways to get ahold of these abstractions. Some people work for them. Some people are given them by family members. Some people make bets--at casinos, at horse races, or on the stock market--and win. So it is certainly possible to point at a given possessor of capital and say--"look! he has capital, but has not produced things that people want!" But that's the nature of people who own capital, not of capital itself.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#118
post #61
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is to retain the good qualities of capitalism which is self-optimization and market-based decision making. The bootmaker and the nailmakers would be autonomous agents making decisions in their best interests. The bootmakers can buy nails from whoever they want, but if the market then rejects their boots because of shoddy nails, they will have to adapt. Also worth pointing out that in a specialized economy, m…

Wasn't the superior adaptability of those cheap Chinese suppliers a big part of why Apple moved there?

My understanding was that the supply chain and infrastructure to produce the smart phone simply wasn't available in the US. America had decimated its manufacturing capabilities to the point that there was no other option beside bankrolling an entire industry from scratch.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#119
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not very different from having a company with an incompetent board of directors. In fact, it is exactly the same thing except in the Yugoslavia scenario every worker in the company would have a seat at the board. While it is true that some people could screw up their workplace for short term gains, is it more or less likely than an "investor" milking the company for profits and running the business to the grou…

Who do you think is more likely to be incompetent, the board of directors of McDonald's or 10 employees chosen at random throughout the entire organization?

I believe it would be a wash. Who do you think is more likely to be incompetent, all McDonald's 450k employees or 10 board of directors?

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#120
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is an article[1] about how the senators and politicians in Tennessee try to avert installing a German-style Betriebsrat (workers' representation) in their Chattanooga plant. The plan is to have it with UAW. Have this lovely quote from a manager , and not a politican: "In puncto Mitbestimmung muss klar sein: Demokratie endet für uns nicht an Werkszäunen." (Concerning worker's participation it is clear: for us, de…

the google translation of that quote is pretty funny: "Democracy does not end for us to plant fences" I think it's important to consider the rights of the owner as well. If I am a captain on a fishing boat, and I built/paid for the boat, I can then hire fisherman to work on my boat. There are more fishermen than captains, if there is a disagreement between the fishermen and the captain regarding where they should be…

I beg your pardon? VW is trying to establish a workers' representation in their plant, with politicians actively working against it because they fear that this will, over time, drive up the general level of income, which, in turn, will lead to other car manufacturers moving to other states.

This has little to do with workers taking over from the owner, and everything with wages kept artificially low in order to attract international companies simply because of these artifically low wages.

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