I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#171

Post by DanBC » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 7:03 PM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #170

nandemo wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the original comment by L_Rahman is saying basically that. Except that it's phrased more like "while not everything is ok and you cannot just ignore the way the workers get abused, you also have to to consider that having money is better than having none".

That's a more reasonable opinion. I believe that the solution is to make sure people in situations like these have real, viable options. For example, places of employment with decent working conditions. Incidentally, many of the complaints against Chinese/Bangladesh/etc. factories could also be leveled against US factories per my experience. Other than the child labor bit, I've seen just about everything here, too, t…

> Incidentally, many of the complaints against Chinese/Bangladesh/etc. factories could also be leveled against US factories per my experience. Other than the child labor bit, I've seen just about everything here, too, though I expect some of the problems are simply more widespread and occur more frequently.

When a US factory burns down and kills all the employees inside because they'd been locked in during their 15 hour shift - which has happened more than once in Bangladesh - you can say that US factories are similar to Bangladeshi factories.

I agree that conditions for many workers suck, but let's not pretend there's much similarity.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#172

Post by jahaja » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 10:14 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #120

factorizer wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A first, rather easy solution would be to pay decently. What? Capitalists can't do this? Because other capitalists will drive them out of business? My my, isn't the system really fucked! Time for some radical architectural changes.

> Capitalists can't do this? Because other capitalists will drive them out of business? My my, isn't the system really fucked! Time for some radical architectural changes. Been tried. Didn't work out very well.

Do alot people reading this react in this manner in their professional life as well, or is this just the usual kind of knee-jerk reaction when someone suggest that something needs to be changed, or rethought, on a much lower lever then the usual superficial alterations we're used to see in the political field?

It's just sad and juvenile.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#173

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 11:08 PM UTC

simplefish wrote: post #145

RodericDay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and hurl brickbats at a system (global capitalism) which has raised more people out of grinding poverty in a shorter time than everything else we've ever done in all of recorded history combined. It's harder to offer real suggestions to actually improve the lives of the poor. And I see you don't. Your outrage may make you feel good, but it helps no one but you. And that makes it se…

[deleted]

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#174

Post by jahaja » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 11:41 PM UTC

simplefish wrote: post #145

RodericDay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and hurl brickbats at a system (global capitalism) which has raised more people out of grinding poverty in a shorter time than everything else we've ever done in all of recorded history combined. It's harder to offer real suggestions to actually improve the lives of the poor. And I see you don't. Your outrage may make you feel good, but it helps no one but you. And that makes it se…

Your arguments are quite flawed as they could be applied in favour of feudalism or plain cattle slavery. Also, "Communist" China has raised quite a lot of people out of povert as well. Should we therefore attribute this to state-communism (or state-capitalism)? Of course not.

For me, this is fundamentally an ethical question. Is this wrong and should one work to change it? I think that when a wage labourer barely, if at all, earns enough for food and shelter it is not much different than slavery. As such, I think it's wrong and that it should be changed.

Furthermore, I can't accept the notion that one has to have a thoughout solution to a complex problem to be able to express ones views. A good start to achieving change is to express when one thinks something is wrong and to build from there. The process of achieving change is naturally much more complex than simply expressing ones view and as such it would be irrational to have that as a requirement to speak.

Fundamental change, which may or may not be needed in this case, is often deeply political and such solutions, even if detailed and serious - albeit subjective, is too often just discarded without any thought or arguments.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#175

Post by Pwnguinz » Mon, Oct 14, 2013, 8:34 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #171

Natsu wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a more reasonable opinion. I believe that the solution is to make sure people in situations like these have real, viable options. For example, places of employment with decent working conditions. Incidentally, many of the complaints against Chinese/Bangladesh/etc. factories could also be leveled against US factories per my experience. Other than the child labor bit, I've seen just about everything here, too, t…

> Incidentally, many of the complaints against Chinese/Bangladesh/etc. factories could also be leveled against US factories per my experience. Other than the child labor bit, I've seen just about everything here, too, though I expect some of the problems are simply more widespread and occur more frequently. When a US factory burns down and kills all the employees inside because they'd been locked in during their 15 h…

> When a US factory burns down and kills all the employees inside because they'd been locked in during their 15 hour shift.

I give you the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in New York City, killing 146 garment workers. Same general gist, even: doors were locked by management from the outside "to prevent pilferage and unauthorized breaks".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#176

Post by DanBC » Mon, Oct 14, 2013, 12:06 PM UTC

Pwnguinz wrote: post #175

DanBC wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Incidentally, many of the complaints against Chinese/Bangladesh/etc. factories could also be leveled against US factories per my experience. Other than the child labor bit, I've seen just about everything here, too, though I expect some of the problems are simply more widespread and occur more frequently. When a US factory burns down and kills all the employees inside because they'd been locked in during their 15 h…

> When a US factory burns down and kills all the employees inside because they'd been locked in during their 15 hour shift. I give you the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in New York City, killing 146 garment workers. Same general gist, even: doors were locked by management from the outside "to prevent pilferage and unauthorized breaks". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in New York City on March 25, 1911

Lots of things have happened in the US since 1911.

Factory fires killing employees still happen in Bangladesh.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24453165

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24195441

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#177

Post by lmm » Mon, Oct 14, 2013, 1:55 PM UTC

jahaja wrote: post #172

lmm wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Capitalists can't do this? Because other capitalists will drive them out of business? My my, isn't the system really fucked! Time for some radical architectural changes. Been tried. Didn't work out very well.

Do alot people reading this react in this manner in their professional life as well, or is this just the usual kind of knee-jerk reaction when someone suggest that something needs to be changed, or rethought, on a much lower lever then the usual superficial alterations we're used to see in the political field? It's just sad and juvenile.

I'm like this professionally too; in fact it's my professional experience that informs this political view (I was a fairly gung-ho socialist before I became a professional developer). Attempting to fundamentally re-architect a software system almost always ends in disaster - I've seen it happen, or http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html is the standard reference.

What works? Incremental changes that you can make while keeping the current system running. It's ok if you have some grand masterplan behind your changes, but try and make sure those small changes will be valuable even if you have to abandon the grand plan, or change its direction. So I now approach politics this way, and it feels like this is a more mature position, not less.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#178

Post by jahaja » Mon, Oct 14, 2013, 6:55 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #177

jahaja wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do alot people reading this react in this manner in their professional life as well, or is this just the usual kind of knee-jerk reaction when someone suggest that something needs to be changed, or rethought, on a much lower lever then the usual superficial alterations we're used to see in the political field? It's just sad and juvenile.

I'm like this professionally too; in fact it's my professional experience that informs this political view (I was a fairly gung-ho socialist before I became a professional developer). Attempting to fundamentally re-architect a software system almost always ends in disaster - I've seen it happen, or http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html is the standard reference. What works? Incremental changes tha…

I think we basically agree, but your reply was a dogmatic one. Discarding the notion of political change without bothering to listen to, or express arguments.

Gradual change do not exclude fundamental change - eventually. Revolution is after all just evolution speeded up. It's just a different approach.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#179

Post by simplefish » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 6:32 AM UTC

jahaja wrote: post #174

simplefish wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and hurl brickbats at a system (global capitalism) which has raised more people out of grinding poverty in a shorter time than everything else we've ever done in all of recorded history combined. It's harder to offer real suggestions to actually improve the lives of the poor. And I see you don't. Your outrage may make you feel good, but it helps no one but you. And that makes it se…

Your arguments are quite flawed as they could be applied in favour of feudalism or plain cattle slavery. Also, "Communist" China has raised quite a lot of people out of povert as well. Should we therefore attribute this to state-communism (or state-capitalism)? Of course not. For me, this is fundamentally an ethical question. Is this wrong and should one work to change it? I think that when a wage labourer barely, if…

> Your arguments are quite flawed as they could be applied in favour of feudalism or plain cattle slavery.

Not at all. I could make some solid suggestions for proven ways of improving on feudalism or slavery. But I don't know of any likely ideas to help Bangladesh beyond what they're already doing. More to the point, RodericDay apparently didn't have any either.

If I say Apple knows a few things about global supply chain management, and thus it might be a good idea not to criticise them as clowns who couldn't run a lemonade stand, it does not follow that I disagree with all criticism of every business everywhere just because my arguments could, in theory, have been made about other companies. Because that particular argument would be wrong applied to almost any other company.

> Also, "Communist" China has raised quite a lot of people out of povert as well.

That was the precise process I was referring to, and as I"m sure you're aware (hence your scare quotes), it was via the operations of modern global capitalism, very similar to what is even now beginning to take place in Bangladesh and elsewhere in the Asian periphery.

> I can't accept the notion that one has to have a thoughout solution to a complex problem to be able to express ones views.

To be sure. But RodericDay went far further than that. First, he didn't have the faintest suggestion of a solution; he didn't even suggest an avenue to explore. And second, he wasn't just "expressing his views"; he was condemning the system and its supporters in the harshest possible language. There is a difference between suggesting that it would be nice if Bangladesh could improve even faster, and saying that people who are pleased with their progress are pro-slavery.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#180

Post by lmm » Tue, Oct 15, 2013, 10:37 AM UTC

jahaja wrote: post #178

lmm wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm like this professionally too; in fact it's my professional experience that informs this political view (I was a fairly gung-ho socialist before I became a professional developer). Attempting to fundamentally re-architect a software system almost always ends in disaster - I've seen it happen, or http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html is the standard reference. What works? Incremental changes tha…

I think we basically agree, but your reply was a dogmatic one. Discarding the notion of political change without bothering to listen to, or express arguments. Gradual change do not exclude fundamental change - eventually. Revolution is after all just evolution speeded up. It's just a different approach.

I was flippant and dismissive yes, but I think that comment I originally replied to - "Capitalists can't do this? Because other capitalists will drive them out of business? My my, isn't the system really fucked! Time for some radical architectural changes." - was unlikely to be worth engaging with.