Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Mono doesn't suck

www2.apebox.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 84 posts

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#31

Post by stcredzero »

jm4 wrote: post #26
gaius wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed - people forget that outside of the software industry itself, software and IT is usually viewed by the business as a cost.

It is a cost. Many IT people/developers like to think otherwise but to do so is truly delusional and can be a roadblock to career advancement.

It may be delusional to not deal with the software is viewed. But the thought that it's strictly a cost is itself a delusion. I have seen firsthand corporations being choked by bad software. (A certain cell phone manufacturer and a certain car rental company come to mind.) I've also experienced good customer service enabled by flexible software, where I'm amazed, "You can really do that?"

Amazon wouldn't be nearly as good as it is if it wasn't for the degree of software quality that they have.

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#32

Post by DannoHung »

jm4 wrote: post #26
gaius wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed - people forget that outside of the software industry itself, software and IT is usually viewed by the business as a cost.

It is a cost. Many IT people/developers like to think otherwise but to do so is truly delusional and can be a roadblock to career advancement.

If IT is only a cost, and not a competitive advantage, then your company doesn't need IT in house and should outsource entirely.

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#33

Post by rbanffy »

h1bored wrote: post #27
jasonkester wrote: post #21

"Secondly, support for Microsoft.NET is a secondary goal for Mono" Guys, you're killing me. I really want to embrace Mono, but there is this fundamental disconnect between what the Mono team think they are building and what the real world needs them to be building. Mono team, your ONLY goal should be to provide a 100% compatible .NET implementation that runs on Linux. That's it. Simply make my C# code work there, and…

I lead a dev team in the real world, using mono for all our work, and I don't need them to do any such thing. Your definition of the "ONLY" goal for them is utter claptrap and certainly not a definition of what the "real world needs". Stop confusing your desires ("Simply make my C# code work there, and I'll be happy") with the only sane direction for them to go. I certainly wouldn't thank them for slavishly copying .…

I am quite sure that complete compatibility with any one release of .NET would silence a lot of FUD by Microsoft and make pointy-haired bosses less reluctant to sign checks for deploying .NET/Mono applications on non-Microsoft platforms.

If it's you who are developing, it's easy to code around the holes, but if you need a closed-source application designed to run on .NET (and I don't know why people want these things, but they do) you have little to no choice but going Microsoft.

And that's a dealbreaker for Mono more often than you imagine.

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#34

Post by jasonkester »

h1bored wrote: post #27
jasonkester wrote: post #21

"Secondly, support for Microsoft.NET is a secondary goal for Mono" Guys, you're killing me. I really want to embrace Mono, but there is this fundamental disconnect between what the Mono team think they are building and what the real world needs them to be building. Mono team, your ONLY goal should be to provide a 100% compatible .NET implementation that runs on Linux. That's it. Simply make my C# code work there, and…

I lead a dev team in the real world, using mono for all our work, and I don't need them to do any such thing. Your definition of the "ONLY" goal for them is utter claptrap and certainly not a definition of what the "real world needs". Stop confusing your desires ("Simply make my C# code work there, and I'll be happy") with the only sane direction for them to go. I certainly wouldn't thank them for slavishly copying .…

You've piqued my curiosity. What are you using Mono for if not to run C# outside of Windows?

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#35

Post by utnick »

jasonkester wrote: post #21

"Secondly, support for Microsoft.NET is a secondary goal for Mono" Guys, you're killing me. I really want to embrace Mono, but there is this fundamental disconnect between what the Mono team think they are building and what the real world needs them to be building. Mono team, your ONLY goal should be to provide a 100% compatible .NET implementation that runs on Linux. That's it. Simply make my C# code work there, and…

What 1.1 things don't work? I thought they were fully 2.0 compatible?

It has been quite good in my experience, obviously if you are doing windows specific things like registry or security it won't work, but that is to be expected.

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#36

Post by rbanffy »

gaius wrote: post #18
cortesi wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are two parts to the Linux community. One part sees Linux as a legitimate tool they can use to bring down costs while maintaining stability. The other sees this as some kind of holy war and is really just using Linux to act like drama queens." Do you really think that the stability, low cost and quality of Open Source software is independent of the Free Software ideology? If I was being as derisive as you are…

There's an old saying, "BSD is for people who love Unix, Linux is for people who hate Microsoft".

Maybe, but wouldn't you hate a company that pulls every dirty trick to harm you, your reputation, your business and that is absolutely committed to extend its monopoly by destroying everything you worked so hard to help create?

And, BTW, to replace your beautiful creations with the crappiest code seen on Earth?

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#37

Post by arebop »

jasonkester wrote: post #34
h1bored wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lead a dev team in the real world, using mono for all our work, and I don't need them to do any such thing. Your definition of the "ONLY" goal for them is utter claptrap and certainly not a definition of what the "real world needs". Stop confusing your desires ("Simply make my C# code work there, and I'll be happy") with the only sane direction for them to go. I certainly wouldn't thank them for slavishly copying .…

You've piqued my curiosity. What are you using Mono for if not to run C# outside of Windows?

For one thing, there are lots of C# programs that can run on Mono outside of Windows, even if some parts of .NET are not yet implemented.

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#38

Post by rbanffy »

didroe wrote: post #22
TomOfTTB wrote: post #2

It's a good article though I'd go so far as to say the piece it responds to isn't worthy of a response. Take this quote... "Nothing that comes from Microsoft can be for our good and benefit. They are dedicated to our destruction and downfall. Mono has infected Gnome. Ubuntu uses Gnome. I switched to Kubuntu and am happy with it. Now Moonlight is infecting Linux." There are two parts to the Linux community. One part s…

I thought this was the best bit: >Mono implements an international standard albeit one from a convicted monopolist. If this is a problem, why do people use C, the standard from convicted monopolist AT&T? Mono implements an improved, Free replacement for a proprietary offering. If this is a problem, why do people use GNU (which provided an improved, Free replacement for proprietary UNIX)?

I never realized AT&T was in a smear campaign against the use of competing C implementations.

Mono implements a _subset_ of a proprietary offering that is Free (as in speech and beer). GNU is pretty much a greatly enhanced superset of AT&T UNIX.

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#39

Post by rbanffy »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #4
sker wrote: post #3

Mono has such a bad reputation. If they want to get market, they will probably have to pull a Bing, i.e. rebrand it. Unfortunately, they don't have $100m to pour into marketing.

I think you miss the point. They already have market. Most Corporate Networks run on Windows Servers. What Mono does is allow those Windows shops with their .Net experienced developers to start experimenting with and hopefully integrating Linux. Without having to change the language and framework they've standardized on. In that way it gives Linux an inroad it didn't have before Mono.

"In that way it gives Linux an inroad it didn't have before Mono."

No, it doesn't. For internal development you have a wide variety of options. Java is quite good and very popular among those who consider the option of not running their wares under Windows. The only way Mono can appeal to Windows-only houses is by making it possible to run unmodified (and proprietary) products that run under Windows on other platforms.

Were I insane enough to allow my business to run on .NET and Windows, I would only consider migrating it to other platform if I had the assurance of being able to run it unmodified.

And, BTW, as it is, Mono is a patent minefield. Do you really trust Microsoft to act as a responsible corporate citizen when doing the right thing would cut their profits?

I wouldn't even if acting responsible would be profitable. Playing dirty seems too embedded in their corporate DNA.

Re: Why Mono doesn't suck

#40

Post by rbanffy »

pufuwozu wrote: post #10

What I find silly is that a large majority of developers prefer creating applications in Flash rather than Silverlight. Flash has proved to be very hard to reverse engineer thus has very little open-source support. With Silverlight, Microsoft has sponsored Novell in creating Moonlight which is completely open-source and could be built into every browser at one stage. Yet I still read that people won't touch Silverlig…

A non-admin can't even install Silverlight on a Windows box! The installed base is close to zero and, at the same time, Flash is everywhere, with about 100% market share.

One doesn't need to look any further to understand why Silverlight is not the platform of choice for rich internet applications.

And, with HTML5 support on many browsers, I hope it never will.

Post reply on HN