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Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

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Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#71

Post by jacques_chester »

srgseg wrote: post #69
jacques_chester wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. As I said, law varies by place and subject. Those differences matter . Some subjects are generally consistent across jurisdictions. Some are not. Who knows which is which? The professionals. Who has the knowledge and experience to correctly interpret different experiences in different circumstances? The professionals. Intelligent people frequently form entirely inaccurate views of subjects in which they a…

It is important that we all have a broad understanding of what is legal, what is not, and where we need to seek advice and proceed with caution. We can then supplement that knowledge with specific legal advice from a lawyer when appropriate. We cannot possibly achieve a broad understanding of the law if the only knowledge we have about how the law works comes directly from our own personal conversations with a lawyer…

Now you're just beating up a strawman version of my advice.

As I noted elsewhere, most legal relationships, transactions, events and conditions exist without ever being noticed or cared about. That is as it should be.

But in cases of high risk or uncertainty, go see a lawyer.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#72

Post by AznHisoka »

jacques_chester wrote: post #7

See a lawyer. Seriously. See a lawyer. People on the internet are not lawyers; if they are lawyers, their main advice is go see a lawyer . Law is a profession of tiny details with huge consequences. Those tiny details vary from place to place and from subject to subject. Even lawyers have lawyers. If I learnt one and only one important lesson from my time in law school, it's this: If you have a question of law, go se…

Saul Goodman never had a lawyer.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#73

Post by CamperBob2 »

chris_wot wrote: post #61
CamperBob2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the neighbor becomes an insider with a fiduciary duty Wow, that's the stupidest thing I've read all day. Is all of investopedia this broken?

No, they are correct. If you trade based on non-public information, you are guilty of insider-trading.

How do you reconcile this sweeping statement with SEC v. Switzer?

Like holding a monopoly, "insider trading" is not automatically a crime. Some specific conditions have to be met.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#74

Post by CamperBob2 »

chris_wot wrote: post #65
pseingatl wrote: post #2

1. The texts are subject to copyright. You have to treat them as you would any other copyrighted text. 2. You can trade on the information in the capital markets. The information was disclosed to you inadvertently. You are not an insider, you did not conspire with anyone to to violate the law. 3. The physical papers still belong to the owner. You may have custody of them, but you do not own them. With respect to trad…

You can trade on the information in the capital markets. The information was disclosed to you inadvertently. You are not an insider, you did not conspire with anyone to to violate the law. Wrong, wrong, wrong! In SEC vs. Texas Gulf Sulfur Co. , those who had access to information not available to the general public and who used it to their advantage were seen to be insiders. [1] In United States vs Carpenter , the ju…

So I have a fiduciary relationship with some guy who was in too big a hurry to jump out of my taxi? Fascinating.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#75

Post by jacalata »

rwallace wrote: post #48
jacalata wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. A friend was recommending her accountant the other day- she said initially it put her off that he didn't do his own taxes, but he explained that doing your own taxes is like representing yourself in court - even if you're qualified to do it for others, you should never do it for yourself.

So why exactly are you advised not to do your own taxes or represent yourself in court even if qualified? (Not a rhetorical question; I'm curious about the answer.)

I've never heard specifically, but I always assumed that you are less rational when handling your own problems than someone else's, and these fields both require pretty clear thinking.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#76

Post by jfoster »

zobzu wrote: post #24
jacques_chester wrote: post #7

See a lawyer. Seriously. See a lawyer. People on the internet are not lawyers; if they are lawyers, their main advice is go see a lawyer . Law is a profession of tiny details with huge consequences. Those tiny details vary from place to place and from subject to subject. Even lawyers have lawyers. If I learnt one and only one important lesson from my time in law school, it's this: If you have a question of law, go se…

While this is the safest thing to do and people should probably do so, I think this shouldn't be used as a "hey, we DONT want you to know". The simple fact that we have to tell people to go see a lawyer for protecting themselves just shows how wrong the society is (in the USA in particular) regarding laws. But more than that, people should at least be able to get an educated answer on what to do, other that "go pay m…

Actually, even consulting a lawyer won't shield you from legal issues.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#77

Post by dmourati »

thyrsus wrote: post #54
dmourati wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you read that article closely enough, nor my comment for that matter. Consider this, how would the fact that you took a random ride in the same cab as the "tipper" ever be established? In other words, what would be the basis of the insider information allegation? How would they ever know?

If it were worth the trouble: cell phone location records, taxi credit card transaction records, or taxi dispatcher records.

Let's say OP discovered a sure-fire way to make money with his located documents and the info they contain. He puts together all the money he can, puts it all into play, and wins huge. What starts the SEC or anyone for that matter into looking at him as an insider? When they do start looking, what ties him to the the taxi at all?

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#78

Post by dllthomas »

Theodores wrote: post #42
manojlds wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does using the information on the document mean whoever misplaced is going to lose something? Probably not. My point is, the OP's case and your example about the wallet are not the same. PS: if I were the OP I would try to return or destroy them.

...however, my point is that you don't actually know what the benefits are of doing the right thing, except that it is highly likely that there will be benefits, even if small ones. Conversely, doing the wrong thing probably means that the 'unintended consequences' are bad - getting caught etc. You could take the documents and through thinking of 'I have struck gold' and nothing else, walk out of the cab and into the…

> You could take the documents and through thinking of 'I have struck gold' and nothing else, walk out of the cab and into the on-coming bus, to go under it and be rescued by the paramedics.

I'm sympathetic to your conclusion, but this seems spurious reasoning. Why is it more likely that you'd be hit by a bus thinking about how you're going to take advantage of the information than hit by a bus thinking about how you're going to get the documents back to the person?

Unbalanced positive ramifications are most likely to be social.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#79

Post by dboat »

jacques_chester wrote: post #71
srgseg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is important that we all have a broad understanding of what is legal, what is not, and where we need to seek advice and proceed with caution. We can then supplement that knowledge with specific legal advice from a lawyer when appropriate. We cannot possibly achieve a broad understanding of the law if the only knowledge we have about how the law works comes directly from our own personal conversations with a lawyer…

Now you're just beating up a strawman version of my advice. As I noted elsewhere, most legal relationships, transactions, events and conditions exist without ever being noticed or cared about. That is as it should be. But in cases of high risk or uncertainty, go see a lawyer.

I think I understand where you're coming from, but think you're going too far. When you see people asking for legal advice and getting well intended information that is somewhere between useless and dangerous, it seems natural to warn people against doing that. However, there is a healthy space for discussion between the extremes of only discussing the law with lawyers, and credulously believing everything commenters tell you.

The OP would be insane to act solely based on the comments he reads here, but there is value for everyone in having the discussion, even if people give bad advice and then other people set the matter right. All the better if the OP comes back and tells us later how it all worked out. I just sounds to me like you're trying to shut down an interesting discussion. I say "go ask a lawyer, but still go ahead and ask us too!"

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#80

Post by Theodores »

dllthomas wrote: post #78
Theodores wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...however, my point is that you don't actually know what the benefits are of doing the right thing, except that it is highly likely that there will be benefits, even if small ones. Conversely, doing the wrong thing probably means that the 'unintended consequences' are bad - getting caught etc. You could take the documents and through thinking of 'I have struck gold' and nothing else, walk out of the cab and into the…

> You could take the documents and through thinking of 'I have struck gold' and nothing else, walk out of the cab and into the on-coming bus, to go under it and be rescued by the paramedics. I'm sympathetic to your conclusion, but this seems spurious reasoning. Why is it more likely that you'd be hit by a bus thinking about how you're going to take advantage of the information than hit by a bus thinking about how you…

I see your point and it is a good one!

Most people that step out into the road in front of me on my commute are doing the 'ipod shuffle', distracted by text or talking about what they are going to have for dinner. So it isn't as if they are distracted by anything really significant and in some way that is where the danger is - an assumption they can multi-task whilst crossing the road. If they were interrupted by someone calling to say they had won the lottery etc. then they probably would stop in their tracks and not attempt to cross the road there and then.

When I found the wallet the other day I did think whether anyone had seen me and I did think about whether there was CCTV and whether I could get caught had I just taken the money. However I quickly decided that I was going to try and return the wallet. I made a few paces up the road before turning back and going to the corner shop to see if they recognised the guy in the travelcard photo. I was distracted, no question about it, and, had I needed to have crossed a road then I might not have had my wits about me.

So, what would have happened had I decided to take the money? Rather than think about whether I had been seen I would have had to actually check every bit of street furniture for CCTV and every window overlooking me. I would have had to surreptitiously put the wallet in a pocket and gone through the thought process of where I was to dispose of it etc. Maybe, as a result, I would have been extra careful on the road.

However, I believe that cheating/stealing/doing wrong poses an abnormal and detrimental strain to thinking. By analogy, one of my Scrabble playing friends has this habit of cheating. He is a journalist with a considerable vocabulary, with pride to match. Therefore he has to win. However, the rest of us know that he sometimes does things with the letters bag and sometimes we choose to turn a blind eye. The added strain of cheating and not getting caught affects his game meaning that he puts himself at a competitive disadvantage. He can have a rack full of 'Q's and 'Z's and miss a seven letter triple word score word like 'quizzed' because he is more focused on trying to get a 'U' from the bag when there is a perfectly good one on the board already.

To conclude, it is the element of deceit.

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