Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#61

Post by chris_wot » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 8:12 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #39

ramchip wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as insider trader, I don't suspect a random person who stumbled upon such data lawfully could be found guilty of any crime for using it. That sounds like terrible advice to me. See this for example: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/100803.asp > Oftentimes, people accused of the crime claim that they just overheard someone talking. Take for example a neighbor who overhears a conversation between a CEO…

the neighbor becomes an insider with a fiduciary duty Wow, that's the stupidest thing I've read all day. Is all of investopedia this broken?

No, they are correct. If you trade based on non-public information, you are guilty of insider-trading.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#62

Post by Dylan16807 » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 8:20 PM UTC

ck2 wrote: post #51

Dylan16807 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is about whether it's okay for you to remember how much money is in the account, and act on that in some manner in the future. Nobody is stealing anything. They can have the pieces of paper back if they want them.

Okay, I found your netbook with your entire life's work of research, literally decades, into a new material which apparently you are about to patent. So I will just email myself a copy of your work and patent it before you can. No harm then right, it is just a copy.

You're trying too hard to stretch things. The situation is not about taking ownership of the pages, or copying the pages, it's about making a decision based on the pages.

So you could be the first person to break the news of my amazing new invention while I am filing the patent, or something. I might be disgruntled but it's my fault for leaving the netbook there.

It's not like you'd be able to patent something you didn't invent without tremendous piles of fraud.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#63

Post by jacques_chester » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 8:23 PM UTC

srgseg wrote: post #34

jacques_chester wrote: post #7

See a lawyer. Seriously. See a lawyer. People on the internet are not lawyers; if they are lawyers, their main advice is go see a lawyer . Law is a profession of tiny details with huge consequences. Those tiny details vary from place to place and from subject to subject. Even lawyers have lawyers. If I learnt one and only one important lesson from my time in law school, it's this: If you have a question of law, go se…

If our only understanding of the law came directly from consulting a lawyer, we'd all be very poor and very ignorant. There is nothing wrong with asking about the experiences of others who may have asked lawyers similar questions, as long as we understand that we should directly seek a lawyer's advice in proportion to what is at stake. By sharing our legal experiences, we'd all become better at understanding the spec…

I disagree.

As I said, law varies by place and subject. Those differences matter. Some subjects are generally consistent across jurisdictions. Some are not.

Who knows which is which? The professionals.

Who has the knowledge and experience to correctly interpret different experiences in different circumstances? The professionals.

Intelligent people frequently form entirely inaccurate views of subjects in which they are not experts. We mock TV shows for having VB GUIs that track IP addresses. Lawyers feel a bit like this when non-lawyers begin swapping legal advice.

> By sharing our legal experiences, we'd all become better at understanding the specific questions we should ask a lawyer, should the need arise.

Lawyers are not unapproachable gods. They are service professionals like any other. You ring, make an appointment, and talk to them. It's really very simple. They will ask some questions and take some notes. If it's a simple matter they will give a simple answer. If it's more complicated they will ask to get back to you.

Self-help and Stack Overflow is fine for writing most low-risk software, where bugs can be patched. It is a risky strategy with law. Some actions cannot be undone. You can't just revert to the "before I made that legal blunder" branch.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#64

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 8:28 PM UTC

kefka wrote: post #29

I'll answer your question with a situation I had happen to me recently. Two of us were working at the local hackerspace late night. We had some trash we took out to the dumpster, and we saw a desktop tower. It had a bit of dried mud on it, so it was probably there no more than a few hours. I take it in, and I put it in the 'dedicated desktop testing area' (read: wherever there was a keyboard/mouse/monitor). I was exp…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#65

Post by chris_wot » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 8:31 PM UTC

pseingatl wrote: post #2

1. The texts are subject to copyright. You have to treat them as you would any other copyrighted text. 2. You can trade on the information in the capital markets. The information was disclosed to you inadvertently. You are not an insider, you did not conspire with anyone to to violate the law. 3. The physical papers still belong to the owner. You may have custody of them, but you do not own them. With respect to trad…

You can trade on the information in the capital markets. The information was disclosed to you inadvertently. You are not an insider, you did not conspire with anyone to to violate the law.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! In SEC vs. Texas Gulf Sulfur Co., those who had access to information not available to the general public and who used it to their advantage were seen to be insiders. [1]

In United States vs Carpenter, the judge stated that "It is well established, as a general proposition, that a person who acquires special knowledge or information by virtue of a confidential or fiduciary relationship with another is not free to exploit that knowledge or information for his own personal benefit but must account to his principal for any profits derived therefrom." [2]

1. http://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/corporations/corporations...

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insider_trading#Court_decisions

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#66

Post by Havoc » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 8:49 PM UTC

jacalata wrote: post #43

ratsimihah wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tiny details with huge consequences. This reminds me of tax filling. > Even lawyers have lawyers. Do accountants have accountants too?

Yes. A friend was recommending her accountant the other day- she said initially it put her off that he didn't do his own taxes, but he explained that doing your own taxes is like representing yourself in court - even if you're qualified to do it for others, you should never do it for yourself.

You derive no additional protection from having someone else file it - the taxpayer remains fully responsible for his/her return under all circumstances. That is the way it is locally anyway - its entirely possible that the US has some arbitrary rule in this regard that changes things.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#67

Post by smalter » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 9:19 PM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #65

pseingatl wrote: post #2

1. The texts are subject to copyright. You have to treat them as you would any other copyrighted text. 2. You can trade on the information in the capital markets. The information was disclosed to you inadvertently. You are not an insider, you did not conspire with anyone to to violate the law. 3. The physical papers still belong to the owner. You may have custody of them, but you do not own them. With respect to trad…

You can trade on the information in the capital markets. The information was disclosed to you inadvertently. You are not an insider, you did not conspire with anyone to to violate the law. Wrong, wrong, wrong! In SEC vs. Texas Gulf Sulfur Co. , those who had access to information not available to the general public and who used it to their advantage were seen to be insiders. [1] In United States vs Carpenter , the ju…

it appears to me that you're misunderstanding those cases.

in texas gulf sulfur, the defendants were officers at the company. they were directors at texas gulf sulfur and they were trading on texas gulf sulfur stock. they have a fiduciary duty to the company that a stranger doesn't have.

that's what the judge in carpenter is referring to. if you acquire the info by virtual of a fiduciary relationship, you aren't free to trade on that info. in texas gulf sulfur, they had the fiduciary relationship to the company because they were officers at that company. not so here.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#68

Post by ramchip » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 10:33 PM UTC

dmourati wrote: post #35

ramchip wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as insider trader, I don't suspect a random person who stumbled upon such data lawfully could be found guilty of any crime for using it. That sounds like terrible advice to me. See this for example: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/100803.asp > Oftentimes, people accused of the crime claim that they just overheard someone talking. Take for example a neighbor who overhears a conversation between a CEO…

I don't think you read that article closely enough, nor my comment for that matter. Consider this, how would the fact that you took a random ride in the same cab as the "tipper" ever be established? In other words, what would be the basis of the insider information allegation? How would they ever know?

They wouldn't know, but it wouldn't be legal.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#69

Post by srgseg » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 10:51 PM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #63

srgseg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If our only understanding of the law came directly from consulting a lawyer, we'd all be very poor and very ignorant. There is nothing wrong with asking about the experiences of others who may have asked lawyers similar questions, as long as we understand that we should directly seek a lawyer's advice in proportion to what is at stake. By sharing our legal experiences, we'd all become better at understanding the spec…

I disagree. As I said, law varies by place and subject. Those differences matter . Some subjects are generally consistent across jurisdictions. Some are not. Who knows which is which? The professionals. Who has the knowledge and experience to correctly interpret different experiences in different circumstances? The professionals. Intelligent people frequently form entirely inaccurate views of subjects in which they a…

It is important that we all have a broad understanding of what is legal, what is not, and where we need to seek advice and proceed with caution. We can then supplement that knowledge with specific legal advice from a lawyer when appropriate.

We cannot possibly achieve a broad understanding of the law if the only knowledge we have about how the law works comes directly from our own personal conversations with a lawyer.

I'm thinking of purchasing a 50 euro piece of software from a company in Germany. Do I need to obtain customs authorization to purchase software from countries other than the US? Perhaps I need a permit to run German software? Maybe it's against the law to even visit a site in Germany unless I'm an EU citizen? Perhaps I need to start paying some of my income and corporation taxes to Germany if my business uses any German software?

If we are completely clueless about what is legal and what is not, the costs of running all of these questions past a lawyer would bring the economy to a halt.

Re: Ask HN: I found documents on the backseat of a taxi. Can I legally use them?

#70

Post by ChuckMcM » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 11:22 PM UTC

There are three answers here;

1) You identify the source of the documents (not necessarily who they refer to but who created them) and you return them.

2) You turn them into a nearby law enforcement office and get a receipt.

3) You destroy them and forgot you ever saw them.

#1 it is important to know the source, if you go by the company in the printouts and the source was an SEC auditor who was looking into the company, then returning them to the company being audited would screw up the SEC audit. In #2 it is important to get a receipt because if the documents are part of a larger problem going on you will want to be able to prove you held them for a very short time as you transferred them to the police. Anything else and whether or not you did anything with them you will be part of the investigation. And #3, they were lost in the first place, someone knows they are lost and are dealing with that. That just finishes a path they were already on. [1]

Under no circumstances do you try to profit from the discovery as that will make you a criminal in the eyes of the law. That stuff always turns out badly.

[1] Note my wife suggested that you might give them to the Taxi driver to take back to their lost and found so if the owner called in looking for them they would have them handy.