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What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

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Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#151

Post by pieterhg »

mbenjaminsmith wrote: post #133

I've lived and built two companies in Thailand over the last 14 years. Before your pop your Macbook Air in a backpack, read my points. 1. Bangkok is not cheap. If you want to have a life that resembles anything you're used to coming from a Western country, you're going to live in Bangkok and you're going to live in a relatively expensive part of the city. Yes, you can live in a concrete block with plastic furniture a…

Re: apartments, that's simply not true. A 1-br apartments in Bangkok is not $1300 - 2000 per month. You might be paying foreigner/expat prices and getting heavily scammed. I found a 1-br apartment 5 mins away from the BTS (public transport) for $300-$500. That's with a pool. And not uncommon. Same with the food, you might have been paying foreigner prices there too. I'd pay $7 for a table full of sushi for one person. And that would be a very very luxurious place. I' always check the prices before entering a restaurant, like any place in the world really. Many foreigners simply go to the non-local places in tourist traps and end up paying too much. Bangkok doesn't help as it's already expensive relative to the rest of the country. Just like any big metropolitan city really. That's why I wrote, stay out of Bangkok. Yet even then if you want, you can live cheaply in Bangkok too if you're smart about it. Thai do it on $500/m in Bangkok.

Re: western food, I think it's obvious that if you're looking for Western products, you're going to pay more than in the West. You're not in the West after all! It's a bit spoiled to expect Western food to be the same price as in your home country. However, if you can assimilate, live, eat and drink like a local, you can live very cheap.

That's why I stayed in Chiang Mai. It has low rent, low cost of living, abundant nature and countless of coffee places to work from.

Re: sex workers, I don't know if you're in my age group (I am 27) so YMMV, but if you go clubbing in Bangkok or Chiang Mai, you will run into prostitutes. Everywhere.

Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#152

Post by jamornh »

homakov wrote: post #94
jamornh wrote: post #17

Thai national here, and as a fellow bootstrapper I would have to agree with most of the points of the OP. The reason why I left my well-paid job in Singapore and come back to Thailand to bootstrap my startup is due to the much lower cost of living and un-tapped talent pool. I'd like to add that the quoted figure of $1,000 USD a month is rather high. Most Thais can get by with $500 USD. That is the current starting sa…

I spend about 10 usd for every meal bcause chicken with rice is so terrible and im tired of eating these rice with something every day. Prices in shopping malls are as high as everywhere in the world

I guess this this much more about cultural adaptation. Of course, when I referred to cheapness of food, I really mean the local food that you get just about everywhere on the street (which will usually be something with rice. That something could be a variation of hundreds or local side dishes so repetition shouldn't be a concern if you know how to order.) If you are looking for international cuisines then you will be paying high prices. Locals do not eat these daily and usually reserve them to Friday night outings or once a month kind of affair.

Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#153

Post by capisce »

YZF wrote: post #145
jamornh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time I would agree with this sentiment, I don't think you're morally wrong to work on your own project while living in other countries without a proper visa; it's definitely not breaking the spirit of the law. Heck, you're spending your money here, all the better. It's obviously less of a risk if you work from home than a co-working space where you could be easily targeted if a random check does happen (a…

In this case it was a profitable business and the guy was also hiring locals. There are probably tax considerations and I would say this is breaking the spirit of the law. Those shared work spaces could be subsidized to encourage locals so taking advantage of that is problematic. It would be different if he was just building his product, no business entity and no local hires...

He was hiring a remote filipino worker and his dutch friend apparently.

Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#154

Post by jawngee »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #108
sirn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Thais can get by with $500 USD. As local, I can confirm this. Though it was roughly three years ago, ~$400 a month back then could get me a very comfortable life in outer area of Bangkok (Onnut), this includes an apartment with to-the-door food service, air conditioning, parking slot, 10 minutes walk to the BTS (train station) and 16Mbps internet. No pool, though! The trick is to rent an apartment within BTS r…

I found food in Thailand to be particularly expensive, even at the grocery store; especially, oddly enough, rice, where Thailand should be the largest exporter! It was at least comparable to the states, where grocery stores are cheap by world standards, but I found it to be more expensive than China in general.

Vietnam is the largest rice exporter, though Thailand used to be #1.

http://www.dw.de/thailand-no-longer-worlds-top-rice-exporter...

Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#155

Post by auvrw »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #135
auvrw wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or you can take university classes, a win for both the visa and language situations. the random foreigner who replies to a couple of job listings, has industry experience, and can crank out more than php or javascript spaghetti (because there are plenty of good developers here who will work for much less than sv wages) can definitely find startup-like situations. or maybe i just lucked out, dunno.

I did the Chinese school thing 11 years ago. The low end tech scene is quite vibrant but wages for competent dev's keeps going up. China really just isn't that poor anymore; though you still have plenty of kids who are poorly trained but willingly to work hard on the cheap. Most foreigners outside of the few American tech companies are entrepreneurs and/or managers. I'm quite unusual as a researcher.

yeah, i was doing the high-school thing at that time.

and plenty of kids who -- with or without formal training -- are solid hackers.

there are def more foreign businessmen than 老外 devs, and not without some cause: i'd definitely get more compensation from a startup in the bay or bank in ny than i do at my current job.

Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#156

Post by mattront »

mbenjaminsmith wrote: post #133

I've lived and built two companies in Thailand over the last 14 years. Before your pop your Macbook Air in a backpack, read my points. 1. Bangkok is not cheap. If you want to have a life that resembles anything you're used to coming from a Western country, you're going to live in Bangkok and you're going to live in a relatively expensive part of the city. Yes, you can live in a concrete block with plastic furniture a…

Life in Thailand can be much cheaper than you describe. I'll give another data point:

We are a family of 3, EU citizens, living in Hua Hin (a resort town 200 km from Bangkok). The city is popular with upper class Thais who own a lot of holiday homes here and visit occasionally as well as with foreign families and pensioners. Plus, the king of Thailand lives here. So, no bustling sex industry or crazy night life here.

We spend around 2000 USD per month:

- 500 USD for 50 sqm, 1 bedroom apartment in a secure complex with olympic size swimming pool, fitness and community office. - 400 USD for a very good international kindergarten, nursery level (3 yr. old) - 100 USD for a driver who drives us to my son's kindergarten. - 600 USD for groceries we buy in the supermarket. It would be cheaper to eat in local restaurants but we like to cook at home. - 200 USD for education visas (1000 USD per person per year, kids don't need visas). - 200 USD for travel health insurance (don't go without it), occasional vine, massage, public transport...

Of course, there is no upper limit of how much you can spend, if you want to. It is easy to find 1 MM USD+ homes and spend 100 USD for a meal. I guess young single people would find it boring here, but for us it is the perfect combination of quality family life, good working conditions without much distractions and healthy lifestyle.

EDIT: here is the view from our apartment: https://www.dropbox.com/s/llqf4uw1nxjq8pj/Pogled__balkona.JP...

Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#157

Post by phillc73 »

EarthLaunch wrote: post #136
yashodhan wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural isolation defines me as a person. So no problems there. How did you like Ukraine? Where were you based? Was it cheap and comparable to Thailand for a place to bootstrap in?

The isolation is extreme when it's an unknown language and non-"western" culture. Though I would still consider Ukraine relatively western. I was in Luhans'k, an industrial city with a college district, located near the eastern border with Russia. I worked remotely from a euro-style ($1200/mo) flat. It was 4 years ago. I loved walking around the city in the snow, looking at shops and markets. The local tech scene was…

I believe even better chances in Lviv, in terms of not feeling so isolated.

The West of Ukraine is more orientated to the European Union, than the East of Ukraine, which looks towards Russia and has a large ethnic Russian population.

My, albeit brief, experience in Lviv was that enough people spoke at least basic English enabling me to communicate. Knowing German also helped in many cases, as did learning at least the basics of Ukrainian for simple daily situations.

Housing is expensive, if you want something other than a badly fading Soviet era apartment on the edge of town. Food and entertainment is reasonably cheap.

Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#158

Post by hackerboos »

j1z0 wrote: post #112
hackerboos wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>EDIT: Of course, I'm not exactly familiar with the visa situation since I don't actually need it. Based on the OP, it seems pretty complicated, but still worth the hassle. I lived in Thailand for several years and 'bootstrapping' your business there as a foreigner without a work permit is breaking the law. You need a work permit to do ANY type of work in Thailand and although working out of sight is unlikely to get…

Look I'm American who has been living in SE Asia (mostly Malaysia) for the past 10 years. I've spent lots of time and worked in lots of countries here including Vietnam, Thailand, Philipines, Singapore, India and obviously Malaysia. In Asia a work visa is intended for foreigners working for locally incorporated companies. Regardless of what it says on the websites, if you have a tourist visa you are free to startup /…

Somebody who throws Singapore in with a list of other South-East Asian countries and goes on to state that laws are just a guideline clearly has no idea what they are talking about.

I can only speak for Thailand and Singapore and both are stringent on enforcement when it comes to visas. I've never heard of anyone walking away with a slap on the wrist or being able to bribe their way out of a situation with regards to visas.

In one of my first replies I said that if you are working alone and out of sight then yes you will probably get away with working in any of those countries.

My whole point though is that it's irresponsible to promote breaking the law here on HN and especially foreign laws at that.

Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#159

Post by seanmcdirmid »

auvrw wrote: post #155
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did the Chinese school thing 11 years ago. The low end tech scene is quite vibrant but wages for competent dev's keeps going up. China really just isn't that poor anymore; though you still have plenty of kids who are poorly trained but willingly to work hard on the cheap. Most foreigners outside of the few American tech companies are entrepreneurs and/or managers. I'm quite unusual as a researcher.

yeah, i was doing the high-school thing at that time. and plenty of kids who -- with or without formal training -- are solid hackers. there are def more foreign businessmen than 老外 devs, and not without some cause: i'd definitely get more compensation from a startup in the bay or bank in ny than i do at my current job.

I work at Microsoft, we have plenty of laowai devs and PMs, though quite a small percentage compared to local and even haigui (returnee) talent. As I rise in level, my pay is becoming more similar to Redmond, combine with the fact that research jobs are rare in general, its a fairly good job for me. But the pollution in Beijing...is the biggest problem for me right now.

Re: What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

#160

Post by seanmcdirmid »

pieterhg wrote: post #151
mbenjaminsmith wrote: post #133

I've lived and built two companies in Thailand over the last 14 years. Before your pop your Macbook Air in a backpack, read my points. 1. Bangkok is not cheap. If you want to have a life that resembles anything you're used to coming from a Western country, you're going to live in Bangkok and you're going to live in a relatively expensive part of the city. Yes, you can live in a concrete block with plastic furniture a…

Re: apartments, that's simply not true. A 1-br apartments in Bangkok is not $1300 - 2000 per month. You might be paying foreigner/expat prices and getting heavily scammed. I found a 1-br apartment 5 mins away from the BTS (public transport) for $300-$500. That's with a pool. And not uncommon. Same with the food, you might have been paying foreigner prices there too. I'd pay $7 for a table full of sushi for one person…

Thai grocery stores are more expensive than (or at least comparable) the states even for raw fruits and vegetables, or rice! And this is at bangkok supermarkets aimed at locals, not even the fancy ones. Americans just don't realize how food they have it.

The problem is that Thai taxes are high and there are price supports for farmers so their living standards can improve; they also aren't as mechanized than in the states.

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